Dancing with beginners in close embrace

[Mladenac]

@Jantango
Dancing with a experienced leader is not like with a beginner, and we both know that.
When I see beginner dancing OE they are like fish out of the water.
And when introduced to CE after a time, they find it quite demanding.
He danced with so many woman so that adjusting to her is not a problem.

@Zoopsia
When the CE was introduced the lady instructor said to ladies that they should have some form of heels.
She has been dancing for AT 7 yrs, dance teacher in Latin/standard, and had numerous group and private lesson with various AT teachers.

IME Going private with a instructor only is disastrous, unless he know how to lead and follow very well, which is very rare.

Every leader with complete stranger should gradually introduce new elements during the dance so he can determine a level of a follower.
Why OE implies more complicated moves?
With the embrace and the I can see the experience of the follower so why I would torture her with advanced movements.
I can do it in CE as well as in OE.

Everything I wrote is my subjective opinion based on my experience.
I do not have knowledge to be absolutely right.

 

[ant]

I learned CE first

Would it be fair to say that you started in CE in your very first lesson?

Even the most ardent CE teachers I know start their pupils off in OE in order to introduce the concepts of walking, lead and follow and connection.

 

[JohnEm]

The embrace makes the dance so easy for us. If only more men would realize that we want to feel good there and then we will follow them anywhere.

If only this were universally true. My experience is that there are many ladies
like Madahlia who find/found relaxing into the embrace really difficult.
One dancer has commented on Sallycat's "The Gift" post on her blog
recently about her own problems.
http://sallycatway.com/?p=2537

If only teachers would explain that the social dance is in the embrace and start
from that basis but, excluding BsAs, very few do. I have however seen a whole room,
packed with novice dancers encouraged just to hold each other and walk in the embrace.
I had a totally novice partner with me and did the same successfully.

And that is what I'd advise Mario to do and only build slowly on simple walking,
according to what response he feels. But keep all that to a practice session, not at a milonga.

 

[Gssh]

Would it be fair to say that you started in CE in your very first lesson?

Even the most ardent CE teachers I know start their pupils off in OE in order to introduce the concepts of walking, lead and follow and connection.

I know several teachers who start people off in CE - and it works quite well - especially the concepts of lead, follow and connection are much easier to understand if they are not mediated by the arms. Considering how difficult it is to get the right dynamic tension in the arms that does not surprise me. n my experience if there is a problem it is with the beginning _leaders_; Followers seem to be quite comfortable with the "hug", leaders seem to feel that they would have much more control and freedom of movement if they could move her around with their arms, and they are more uncomfortable/awkward in being in close contact with somebody. In my experience total beginners are quite comfortable in close embrace if they see that it is the norm in the community. Gssh

 

[Dave Bailey]

What I am trying to elicit here is a personal-experience type of posting on the specific skills and tacts that will work well with a beginning dance partner in the social dance (milonga)..in other words; without stopping to 'teach'..

Keep it simple, keep it slow. Ummm, that's pretty much it.

As for the embrace, close embrace will almost certainly not work with a total beginner who doesn't know about posture. But if she does know it, and uses it, then close is actually easier to lead her with.

I would also appreciate any distinctions made between the 'first time' beginner and the beginner who has completed their first series of classes ..

Frankly, I don't think total beginners should try milongas without any classes. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

 

[bordertangoman]

Keep it simple, keep it slow. Ummm, that's pretty much it.

As for the embrace, close embrace will almost certainly not work with a total beginner who doesn't know about posture. But if she does know it, and uses it, then close is actually easier to lead her with.


Frankly, I don't think total beginners should try milongas without any classes. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

I'm sure the followers love it when you're harsh

I agree in principle but there's always someone who turns up with a friend or her 70 year old mother and wants a go; actually the 70 year old was rather good. I put it down to her being a Northern Lass.

 

[Madahlia]

If only this were universally true. My experience is that there are many ladies
like Madahlia who find/found relaxing into the embrace really difficult.
One dancer has commented on Sallycat's "The Gift" post on her blog
recently about her own problems.
http://sallycatway.com/?p=2537

Thanks for this, JohnEm, it usually feels unmentionable to admit that I don't always enjoy CE. Shall we say, when it's good it's very, very good, but when it's bad it's horrid!
Having said that, I wish that I had been taught elements of CE from the very start. I think it's not unreasonable, for example, to teach figures using OE but to practise basic walks in CE. Then it would not have been such a shock and I wouldn't have acquired the habit of OE so thoroughly. Most teachers seem to assume that CE just happens magically but I think it requires a lot of practice, cooperation, adjustment and sheer physical compatibility to make it work most of the time, and sometimes it never will.

I have however seen a whole room,
packed with novice dancers encouraged just to hold each other and walk in the embrace.

Me too, ending with a group hug! It really helped to clear the mists away from my understanding of CE. So it can be done.

 

[dchester]

The embrace makes the dance so easy for us. If only more men would realize that we want to feel good there and then we will follow them anywhere.

The problem we have to deal with here, is that not all women want the same thing. Some women absolutely do want what you have described, but not all (probably not even half).

The concept of the follower "surrendering" to the lead does not seem to be taught by many teachers here. Some actually teach something very different, the idea of the follower being an "active participant" which (as best as I can understand it) seems to mean she will occasionally do something else other than what is lead, or "invited".

 

[newbie]

so easy for us. If only more men would realize that we want to feel good there and then we will follow them anywhere.

Sure. Nothing will happen. Very safe. Once you've put this chain, the "anywhere" is more anywhere in a box than anywhere in the world. Now on the other side you have followers who are actually ready to learn how to follow, why do you want to reduce from the start their possibilities to 2D-tango?

 

[Steve Pastor]

She went into the embrace of the milonguero and did not question it. In one hour she was dancing and following everything he did. She had no problem whatsoever.

The embrace makes the dance so easy for us. If only more men would realize that we want to feel good there and then we will follow them anywhere.

Question to Jan, and other women.

So, do you think it's a "When in Rome..." kind of thing?
I know that when I travel, I do my best to learn the local customs, and the follow them.
Based on my experience in Portland practicas, I would expect that the same women who accept the embrace to pretty much revert to USA /European behavior after a short while back home.

 

[Steve Pastor]

The concept of the follower "surrendering" to the lead does not seem to be taught by many teachers here. Some actually teach something very different, the idea of the follower being an "active participant" which (as best as I can understand it) seems to mean she will occasionally do something else other than what is lead, or "invited".

Yes, indeed. They are teaching what fits in the current man/woman culture in the US.
It's interesting to note the changes in dance texts over the decades, too.

 

[Mladenac]

The problem we have to deal with here, is that not all women want the same thing. Some women absolutely do want what you have described, but not all (probably not even half).

The concept of the follower "surrendering" to the lead does not seem to be taught by many teachers here. Some actually teach something very different, the idea of the follower being an "active participant" which (as best as I can understand it) seems to mean she will occasionally do something else other than what is lead, or "invited".

I mean by active that she actively listens to the music, and that she is not like a bag i.e. I do not carry her on the dance floor and of course she is always late.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I think we are discussing CE in this thread as though we agree on what it is, but I'm pretty sure we don't.

I also don't think we are in agreement on what a "beginner" is...

a first timer?
someone who's had <4 lessons?
someone who's had 4-8 lessons?

I know people who've been dancing for quite awhile who still dance like they are in their first month or 2.

What is a beginner?
Even Mario tried to get answers based on more than one definition of "beginner" in his OP, but we continue to discuss them as though they are all the same.

 

[Mario7]

When dancing with beginners, your leads have to be very clear, and typically, more force and/or support is needed. You have to ensure that you stay very stable. For me, it seems to work much better in close embrace, as long as the follower is comfortable with that. Simple walking (slow beats only) is a good start, although rock steps (and rock step turns) seem to be fine with beginners, even with quick steps.

With ochos, you must be clear to distinguish the pivot portion of the lead from the step portion of the lead. If she is a new beginner, then I won't lead the cross, and I'll always take the extra step when going into or coming out of cross system (like for ochos).

I will remember this, too. Many thanks!

 

[Zoopsia59]

@Zoopsia
When the CE was introduced the lady instructor said to ladies that they should have some form of heels.
She has been dancing for AT 7 yrs, dance teacher in Latin/standard, and had numerous group and private lesson with various AT teachers.
.

My first reaction is.. "So?"

Maybe that sounds snide, but the resume doesn't impress me as much as maybe you intended. I've been dancing at least that long and have also had numerous group and private lessons. I also don't think experience in Latin standard is relevant.

Its EASIER in heels. That doesn't mean heels are required. The amount of lean plays a role as does the flexibility of the achilles.

And I TOTALLY disagree that one should dance with their heel off the floor when in flats. We had this discussion on another thread and the general consensus seemed to be that it is less stable/ grounded/ whatever and that leaders have a hard time feeling the follower's position and weight when she is standing on her toes. I know a few followers who dance this way when they take off their heels, but they have VERY strong feet. I wouldn't advise the average follower to dance all night with her heels off the floor.

I'll stick with the instruction given to me by Rebecca Shulman, Angeles Chanaha, Mariana Galassi. Mariella Frangenillo and others. I'm pretty sure they know what they are talking about... (even though they don't teach Latin Standard. ) It works for me and improves my dancing. I've only had ONE teacher tell me to dance without putting my heels down. EVERYONE else has instructed to get them down regardless of the shoes.

This is all pretty unrelated to the OP, so if you want to discuss it further, mayb we should take it to the thread already begun for follower technique as relates to heels and toe dancing...