"Decorations" / "Embellishments" / "Interpretation"
- Thread starter Dave Bailey
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Dave Bailey
Active Member
I wouldn't know...
Light Sleeper
New Member
I think you've hit the nail on the head, when you say it's more to do with philosophies. So, the broad philosophies could be
1) "I lead, you follow, I'll give you an opportunity to do something here, and what I anticipate you will do will be.... xyz and I'll be put off my stroke if you don't do that but what the hey, it won't take long ..."
2) Me man, you woman. Ug. I carry you off to my cave... er, sorry, I mean, round the line of dance.
3) I don't want to perpetuate the patriarchal autocracy on the dancefloor, therefore, I will break gender stereotypes and do little decorations myself and I expect you to match me, I want you to have an equal (if different) role in this dance relationship. We each have room to breathe... it may end where one of us isn't so keen on exactly how it ended up.. but what's more important is that this is a two-way street. Also, as we gain experience, our communication will improve.
Okay, I get the drift from you and Dave that it's annoying if the woman overdoes it... but is it not also equally annoying if she leans on you too much, leans back, keeps falling off her axis, presses on your arm/ shoulder too much, needs to be physically moved by you instead of moving herself... and all other poor following skills? Is poor execution of adornments especially annoying and why?
I would also add, as well as philosophies, there is skill level and just plain 'personality'.
ie, skill level - your teacher encourages you to have a crack at adornments and to not be shy about it. It's going to take you two years, say, to get your technique to a decent standard, so you might as well have a go at adornments while you are doing it and gradually improve on all counts. After a year or two you might finally appreciate what all this talk of 'connection' is about, then you'll blush with embarrassment about how you used to go over the top with adornos.
Personality - this is a man's world, "I've learnt to be a bolshy, ball-breaking go-getter, wallflowers and mousy women do not get to dance with the best leaders, I'm going to get what I want, a chance to show myself off and the man is just there as wallpaper, he get's his input from the leading anyway, he gets to be in charge." And of course there are women who just like to dance but think it's a jazz class
In sum - to dchester and Dave - do you object to women who haven't yet developed an appreciation of connection? Women who don't care about their partner? Women who don't really appreciate 'tango' as a two-way street? Or women who genuinely believe they should get a chance to show off but that from your point of view they go over the top and it impedes your enjoyment of the dance?
Doesn't all this just reflect life? Aiming for give and take in relationships? It's never always perfect and 50/50 is it?
As said, I always err on the side of caution and my DP wants more, more, MORE... though like I say, he's asking for more but sometimes he doesn't even know he's getting more!
You said a lot of interesting stuff, and when I get more time, I'll go into some of it a little bit more, but the only time the follower's adornments have the "potential" to be annoying, is when they force a change in the step, or in the rhythm. At least half the time, my first thought is that my lead wasn't clear enough, though. It takes me some time to realize that she's doing her own thing, rather than going strictly by the lead.
As far as I'm considered, whenever you can get in between what I'm leading is fair game. Poor execution (per se) is not a problem for me. I'm quite sure that some of my leads aren't the greatest either.
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Mmmm. Good question.
I'd say "yes", simply because, to be frank, most women doing excessive adornments aren't aware that they need to avoid disrupting the flow of the dance. In fact, they sometimes see these actions as being empowering rather than disruptive.
So it's an attitude thing. A woman with poor technique can learn it - and mostly she'll be aware of her flaws. An over-adorner thinks that she's not doing anything wrong in the first place.
Hopefully that makes sense
To be honest, I'm not sure why he wants "more" - I suspect you've got a better understanding than he does of what's appropriate, though.As said, I always err on the side of caution and my DP wants more, more, MORE... though like I say, he's asking for more but sometimes he doesn't even know he's getting more!
Angel HI
Well-Known Member
The biz about the lady taking off on her own while the man is forced to just wait until she is done is not about philosophy, lead/follow, or anything. It's about what's right.
The answer is actually 2-fold. Firstly, what is an adorno, and when is it apropos to do it? Answer: it is not an addition to the movement, rather an extension of the movement. If it isn't a natural extension of a movement... don't do it. As to when is answered by the definition of what. Yes, I, too, have had ladies feel the space/time to do an adorno; do it well, and move on. I have also had ladies with the same corrctly led application to take, for example, a voleo, and then take off on a series of tapis, patadas, step-overs, media lunas (all at lightening speed), and come to rest at my foot... waiting to be praised for so patiently seeking a lead. In one city, self-praised for their tango, it happens so often that we have named the sequence after them, and expect it. Tip of the Day: This is annoying as h@##!
The answer is actually 2-fold. Firstly, what is an adorno, and when is it apropos to do it? Answer: it is not an addition to the movement, rather an extension of the movement. If it isn't a natural extension of a movement... don't do it. As to when is answered by the definition of what. Yes, I, too, have had ladies feel the space/time to do an adorno; do it well, and move on. I have also had ladies with the same corrctly led application to take, for example, a voleo, and then take off on a series of tapis, patadas, step-overs, media lunas (all at lightening speed), and come to rest at my foot... waiting to be praised for so patiently seeking a lead. In one city, self-praised for their tango, it happens so often that we have named the sequence after them, and expect it. Tip of the Day: This is annoying as h@##!
Lui
Active Member
I would say, that there are two groups of decorations.
Lead Decoration:
Decorations I lead, either directly like a saludo or indirectly by giving time and space like some movements connected to the parada, stepping over the men's food, etc. I’ll take the responsibility not to hinder, hurt anybody, and she can execute her action any style she likes. If the need arises I’ll shorten the action, for example when we stop the dance flow.
Woman's Decoration.
Embellishments that happens, within the pattern of dance, I’m not hindered by them and sometimes I don’t feel them at all. I don’t slow or give space, the women makes them between our regular steps. The are usually small. Taps or crossing forward during ochos would be such examples. They are more or less just for her own musical interpretation. It’s a little hard to achieve speed and balance. However, for the experienced follower they can turn a dance with a novice leader into an exciting challenge, even when he is doing the Base for full three minutes.
Usually I don’t leave the woman much opportunity to emblish, because I like to interpret the music with a lot of changes in dynamic and direction. Beside my personal taste it’s also a security measure, especially since Tango Nuevo included those high kicking decoration. Most woman don’t seem to care to much about dance flow, musicality and their next neighbour. If I know she is fond of a special kind of decoration, I might steer towards a quite corner and provoke that embellishment. In general, I hate any movements oustside my field of vision, like ganchos, or high energy moves, like those high stopped nuevo boleos, on the dance floor. I never know who will accidentally step into its trajectory.
Unfortunately, sometimes dancing with a woman feels like carrying a weasel in a burlap sack, some fierce beast kicking for it’s life. Wraps, ganchos, kicks all over the place, hindering me in my planned path and endangering other dancers.
Lead Decoration:
Decorations I lead, either directly like a saludo or indirectly by giving time and space like some movements connected to the parada, stepping over the men's food, etc. I’ll take the responsibility not to hinder, hurt anybody, and she can execute her action any style she likes. If the need arises I’ll shorten the action, for example when we stop the dance flow.
Woman's Decoration.
Embellishments that happens, within the pattern of dance, I’m not hindered by them and sometimes I don’t feel them at all. I don’t slow or give space, the women makes them between our regular steps. The are usually small. Taps or crossing forward during ochos would be such examples. They are more or less just for her own musical interpretation. It’s a little hard to achieve speed and balance. However, for the experienced follower they can turn a dance with a novice leader into an exciting challenge, even when he is doing the Base for full three minutes.
Usually I don’t leave the woman much opportunity to emblish, because I like to interpret the music with a lot of changes in dynamic and direction. Beside my personal taste it’s also a security measure, especially since Tango Nuevo included those high kicking decoration. Most woman don’t seem to care to much about dance flow, musicality and their next neighbour. If I know she is fond of a special kind of decoration, I might steer towards a quite corner and provoke that embellishment. In general, I hate any movements oustside my field of vision, like ganchos, or high energy moves, like those high stopped nuevo boleos, on the dance floor. I never know who will accidentally step into its trajectory.
Unfortunately, sometimes dancing with a woman feels like carrying a weasel in a burlap sack, some fierce beast kicking for it’s life. Wraps, ganchos, kicks all over the place, hindering me in my planned path and endangering other dancers.
I attended an embellishments class many years ago, given by Nora Dinzelbacher. She categorized embellishments into three types: those where the leader doesn't know or feel the embellishment, those where the leader does know about or feel the embellishment and it does not interfere with the lead, and those where the embellishment does interfere with the lead. She showed a step in which the follower actually assumed the lead for a moment and changed the dance. Nora explained that not all leaders would appreciate this, so be careful when doing it. To me, when the follower takes too much time, making me wait for her, it interferes with my leading. Very occasionally this is okay, but if it is a regular part of her dance I don't dance with the woman again. I probably wouldn't dance with her to begin with.
I've danced with women who were doing so much with their feet that their whole body was moving, interfering with the connection (close embrace). I did not appreciate that.
I've danced with women who were doing so much with their feet that their whole body was moving, interfering with the connection (close embrace). I did not appreciate that.
Dave Bailey
Active Member
To me, that last one simply isn't an embellishment - it's "taking over the lead", or "interpretation / playing / hijacking".
I certainly don't appreciate it. If you want to lead, then lead. If you want to follow, follow.
Lui
Active Member
Zoopsia59, I have to excuse myself. It really was an unfair generalization.
Please substitute “most women” with “most of the woman I danced with during my last two years in Berlin, fresh from one of the ever popular embellishment courses and eager to realize it all”. It seems to me, that here most followers are so in love with the technical aspects that they forget to align the movement to the music and the available space.
Please substitute “most women” with “most of the woman I danced with during my last two years in Berlin, fresh from one of the ever popular embellishment courses and eager to realize it all”. It seems to me, that here most followers are so in love with the technical aspects that they forget to align the movement to the music and the available space.
Light Sleeper
New Member
So, you're ok with a lady occasionally taking over the lead?
... but you prefer not but are ok as long as it 'fits in' with the rhythm of your dancing...in other words, your partner is trying to tune into you and establish what is 'fair game'?
Yes, I think so, I think you're saying you don't like women taking over the lead (or 'disrupting the flow' as you see it) as per your comment here:
On the other hand, taking over the lead is acceptable to some tango dancers...
Andabien, the 3 categories make sense, and you teacher was also sensible to say that not every leader will appreciate the woman taking the lead.
You used the word 'forced' - some leaders are happy to have the woman take over the lead. And in that instance surely it is not 'wrong' as they would not perceive it as 'being forced to wait while she is done'. If the leader is not happy then the woman sounds like she is not bothering to 'tune in' but that does not mean that 'taking over the lead' is de facto wrong.
And then again, is the man really forced to wait? Not being a leader, I don't know - but can he not re-establish the lead by using his body, perhaps by taking her off her central axis a little and then re-establishing the walk or something?
There are hardly any 'absolutes' and it's all about trying to tune in to the person you are dancing with, surely? We don't always get it pitch perfect but I don't see how you can justify saying one way is either right or wrong if both parties are happy.
Of course, I concede there is the important question of 'how' and the degree of it - your lady doing umpteen moves sounds way over the top. But would you object, say, to a lady providing a little more impetus to a molinete, for example? It seems to me this move is open to interplay where the woman can provide some momentum and it's quite subtle, and does not disrupt the lead too much.
Forced? Not in my opinion. I can usually assume the lead whenever I want to, even if I have to assert myself a bit. Sometimes my partner will be happy to submit to my lead, knowing that I am going to give her definite leads according to my intention. (She submits because she is willing to, not because I force her to). And, I enjoy it when my partner gives me something back, but only when the situation is just right. A little spice is fine, and I am responsive to it.
I once had a partner who insisted on doing an embellishment on my right ankle every dang time I led a forward ocho to her right. It was incessant and aggravating. I didn't dance with her again.
To me, "taking over the lead" is quite different from embellishments that do not change what I am leading. I try to lead a specific step (or move) along with a specific rhythm (or timing).
Example: If I pause, and the follower does circles with her free foot, that does not interfere or take over my lead. The same applies if I lead a step and the follower gets in a toe tap (or whatever) while doing what I led, (and at the rhythm I led). These are embellishments that fit in with what I am leading, and are fine by me.
Taking over the lead (which is annoying for me), is when the follower ignores what I am leading (either the step or the timing), and does what she feels like instead. My first thought is often that my lead was unclear, and I modify how I lead the move, or I stop leading the particular move. (Although there is a situation when this is good, such as to avoid a collision, or some other safety reason when the follower sees something the the leader can not.)
