Differences in English theory/technique and Italian theory/technique in Standard Ball

Laura said:
... I wonder if we can correlate the swings in fashion trends regarding floats to swings in dancing trends in the power-vs.-finesse vein?
Wouldn't that be really interesting?

Laura said:
Now here's a question: are the differences between the English and Italian styles really just a reflection as to where the top coaches and couples from these countries are in their own personal explorations of movevent vis-a-vis Standard dancing? Or are the two really evolving on separate tracks?

Interesting question.
I've asked several coaches/mentors.
Got different answers--although all admitted that it seems rather inevitable at this point that there will be some evolution.

One coach, about 80 years old, mentioned to me in passing a number of years ago that there was a coach who started all of this when he established himself in Italy many years ago.
That he was one primary reason there is a powerbase of Italian dancers.
He and I were watching Domenico and Gioia back when they were still in their tenderfeet.

I wish I paid attention more to that conversation...didn't know better then to listen closely.


m
 
flexi said:
And in some couples "mix and match" or a little of this a little of that..I think you have a couple that have a very well matched partners in skill ability and weights,,,
Pino aleksandra, Marcus and Karen, Crossly and Lyn...
Well, when Jonathan won the amateur worlds with Kylie, he did say in an interview that they'd had to change their dancing to include more of the non-"English" elements.
 
One thing the power dancers can do is move arbitrarily slowly at almost any point in the dance, or treat the vertical and horizontal components of movement seperately, because they are more likely to have their weight stably over or between their feet rather than in flight. This can create a lot of possibilities that aren't there in the more interdependent relationship of movement to position around which the finesse type dancing is designed - on the other hand, it also looks heavier and purposeful, because that's essentially what it is.

If I was going to propose a best of both worlds, I would not simply mix and match partial techniques to create a synthetic whole, as I think that's likely to miss the true advantages of each. Instead, I think I would pick different methods for different applications. A normal natural turn would be along the mathematically optimal swing path of finesse dancing, with it's overhanging (temporarily unsupported) phases of body position. On the other hand, if I wanted to express something with a dramatically slow rise, I might use the power dancer's method of taking step 2 still fairly down with my weight between my feet, then transfering onto the foot slowly and rising at whatever pace felt artistically interesting. One technique for movement, another for comparatively static interludes.

One more observation: this is probably only inconsistently true, but I tend to see finesse dancers having their practice wear traditionally tailored so that the trouser leg breaks slightly over the instep of the foot. In contrast, power dancers get their trousers tailored more in the latin style, so that a wider cuff almost entirely covers the foot when they are standing flat. Or maybe the difference is not in the clothes but in the actual stance - the power dancers standing around grounded, the finesse dancers standing up normally and lowering only when moving?
 
Chris Stratton said:
One thing the power dancers can do is move arbitrarily slowly at almost any point in the dance, or treat the vertical and horizontal components of movement seperately, because they are more likely to have their weight over or between their feet rather than in flight. This can create a lot of possibilities that aren't there in the more interdependent relationship of movement to position around which the finesse type dancing is designed - on the other hand, it also looks heavier and purposeful, because that's essentially what it is.

several people here mention power dancing and all meant different things...

for example I think power dancing is releasing weight and allowing body flight without control (for a short moment).

while the english stuff the way it is taught to me is giving weight to you partner and controlling the movement of two weights togehter,
english stuff - you move two weights around the floor. you can't loose control of them cause you need to keep them together. You are always aware where they (weights, center of couple) are and you are stretching and moving all relative to them
power stuff - you move yourself and your partner moves herself. not controlling the center of the couple as much
 
Kitty said:
several people here mention power dancing and all meant different things...

Absolutely, you are slicing things in a different direction than I was.

for example I think power dancing is releasing weight and allowing body flight without control (for a short moment).

Done right I would actually say that's more the essence of what we've started calling finesse dancing - using your weight and inertia rather than your muscles, drifting rather than pushing.

while the english stuff the way it is taught to me is giving weight to you partner and controlling the movement of two weights togehter,
english stuff - you move two weights around the floor. you can't loose control of them cause you need to keep them together. You are always aware where they (weights, center of couple) are and you are stretching and moving all relative to them
power stuff - you move yourself and your partner moves herself. not controlling the center of the couple as much

I think this is a different area of decision - there may be a linkage between the decision to dance physically dependent or independent of your partner (I think of it as energy interchange connection vs information connection) and the decisions about using muscles or inertia to sustain movement, but I don't think such a linkage has been explained here yet, and my personal suscpicion is that it would be the opposite linkage from what you are suggesting.

I also think that the physically independent dancers actually have to be more aware of where their partner's weight is, because each dancer is less stable - they have only their own foot to balance over, and can't borrow any help from their partner. Plus the lighter connection requires increased awareness. With the more shared energy connection, balance is also somewhat shared, so you don't have to be as specifically sensitive to where your partner is, because having something that more closely approaches a single shared body in terms of balance and energy, where your partner is is where you are.

Another thing is the question of pre-emptively making space for your partner to invite them into movement, vs having space made only as the partner pushes the interfering body part out of the way. An information connection has to pre-emptive create space based on the trend of movement (even if only incrementally a centimeter ahead of what is needed) wheras an energy connection can reactively create space in response to the partner actually pushing through.
 
Kitty's starting to pic up on what I'm interested in..
Just because I say power, it doesn't mean at anytime there isn't control..
finesse doesn't mean with out energy..

Suppose you have two coaches/teachers from these two styes...

One might say to me..." swing your left side through the lady on this feater step, don't worry about her, she's a good girl and she knows what she's doing. she'll get out of the way and take care of herself... right now I need you to focus on sending your body weight down the floor, swinging your side and then finding your ballance... this is more what I mean by power..

Possibly on a different lessonwith a coach on the opposing side I might hear..."
I need you to be very careful and make sure you don't run your partner over on the feather... actually, I want you to think of sending the lady first.. allow her to get moving, and then I want you to think of following her... filling in the space she has made for you..... more a finesse idea..

Either style can stress a very strong center , either one could have many ideas on mechanics heel toes straight or curve... but that's not what I'm interested in ...
these two approches are VERY different, and I'm a bit curious what others think about this,,,
My opinion is their is a bit importance placed on the role's and abilities of the couple.. the different schools ask very different things from the leader and the follower...
 
flexi said:
Suppose you have two coaches/teachers from these two styes...

One might say to me..." swing your left side through the lady on this feater step, don't worry about her, she's a good girl and she knows what she's doing. she'll get out of the way and take care of herself... right now I need you to focus on sending your body weight down the floor, swinging your side and then finding your ballance... this is more what I mean by power..

Possibly on a different lessonwith a coach on the opposing side I might hear..."
I need you to be very careful and make sure you don't run your partner over on the feather... actually, I want you to think of sending the lady first.. allow her to get moving, and then I want you to think of following her... filling in the space she has made for you..... more a finesse idea..

It sounds to me as if the first coach is asking you to concentrate on the follow through, while the second is asking you to concentrate on the subtle setup of the action (the small things the man does that lead to a large result in the lady)

Obviously you will eventually need to do both. Personally I think it is appropriate to do the setup first, because if you try to create the full size action via the followthrough without the setup, the lady will be left with the choice of either practicing the step in an unbalance position (because she's been suprised by your motion) or guessing at what you are going to do, and how big it is. To me, neither of those is desireable.

So I would concentrate on getting the essence of the setup first, even if the result is small and without full followthrough. Once there's a really good setup that reliably puts each partner in a functional and comfortable body position, there's then the opportunity to learn to expand the figure using the ideal mechanisms - rolling through the feet, swinging the free side while the standing side is also free to progress, letting the leg swing as a result of the side swing, etc - instead of the compenasting mechanisms that get practiced if one tries to dance a full figure from a somewhat off starting condition.
 
flexi said:
Kitty's starting to pic up on what I'm interested in..
Just because I say power, it doesn't mean at anytime there isn't control..
finesse doesn't mean with out energy..

Suppose you have two coaches/teachers from these two styes...

One might say to me..." swing your left side through the lady on this feater step, don't worry about her, she's a good girl and she knows what she's doing. she'll get out of the way and take care of herself... right now I need you to focus on sending your body weight down the floor, swinging your side and then finding your ballance... this is more what I mean by power..

Possibly on a different lessonwith a coach on the opposing side I might hear..."
I need you to be very careful and make sure you don't run your partner over on the feather... actually, I want you to think of sending the lady first.. allow her to get moving, and then I want you to think of following her... filling in the space she has made for you..... more a finesse idea..

let me summarize what you just described:
power version you just move yourself and lady takes care of herself

finesse version man takes care of the lady.

but then earlier you said that finesse involves (or looks like it involves) a more active lady.
 
Kitty said:
let me summarize what you just described:
power version you just move yourself and lady takes care of herself

finesse version man takes care of the lady.

but then earlier you said that finesse involves (or looks like it involves) a more active lady.

This makes sense if you think of "taking care of the lady" as setting her in a position that is free so that she has the time and space to be active.
 
This is just an example... there are examples of this for eveything and anything you do in any dance..

Rt lunge... send your body enter, transfer the weight, be sure to take her with you..

or
singnal a lateral movement by legs frame whatever... and follow her shame into the movement...

These idesa are different and are applied to everything,
but they entirely change how you dance, and what your role is..
 
Kitty said:
let me summarize what you just described:
power version you just move yourself and lady takes care of herself

finesse version man takes care of the lady.

but then earlier you said that finesse involves (or looks like it involves) a more active lady.


both versions they guy takes care of the lady, but the focus is different..
but yes this is the diference I'm talking about...
 
dancesportgirl21 said:
so would it make sense to say that the major difference in approach comes down to priorities?

At least in terms of training dancers, yes.

Part of what seems to have happened is a desire by promising but relatively inexperienced dancers to be competitive earlier, by copying the obvious scale of the motion and expression now danced at the top. Compared to what seems to be necessary in competition today, the old school approach of working out the techniques at comparatively modest levels of movement and shaping no longer appears competitive - it looks like too slow a path of development. So most dancers today go for competitive movement and shape first (and do perform quite impressively) but only start retrofitting classic techniques after they arrive in the top quarter or so of their division.
 

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