Do do we ever pay off the debt?

Speaking personally, this whole internal struggle is difficult for me to identify with. I like dancing with beginners. They wholeheartedly appreciate well-done basics, just as I do. Not with the same depth of understanding, perhaps, but definitely with the same degree of delight. And if I choose to propose something that challenges them, I get to tackle the equal-but-opposite challenge of dealing with their unpredictable response.

Dancing with beginners is not worse. Just different. It's not charitable, really, when I seek them out as partners.
 
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opendoor said:
Dancing with the old hands, that's what it's all about. Social dancing isn't passed down by professionals, but rather by advanced amateurs!
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Define terms. Don't 'advanced amateurs' become 'professionals' (at some level) - even if it's a side hustle?

Or are you jesting with the ambiguities in social AT?
 
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TTanguero said:
I personally love a mix of dancing with familiar and new partners, so I don't see this as a charity or kindness, more as a gamble. That gamble has paid off for me way more times than it hasn't.
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Likewise. Many of my most fun dances have been with complete beginners who were having an infectiously good time dancing with me.

Granted, my experience is in one-song-and-done communities (swing,blues), so there's also smaller stakes on the gamble than there would be at a milonga.
 
I don't tend to dance with people I don't really feel like dancing with unless I'm in a good mood and have had good dances already. :)

I take care of my own needs and wants before attending to others'. I don't see the point in prioritising others above myself, I've had far too much experience in not setting firm enough boundaries.
 
Many good points, let me pick one out:
fiesta0618 said:
In fact, the only clear advantage to egalitarian dance communities is that they can attract & nurture their own newcomers, thereby become stable and self-sustaining. Stratified & insular communities depend on the efforts of other beginner-friendly, egalitarian ones to develop their next generation of members.

The upshot here is that diverse, sustainable communities need to have multiple faces, and different events to serve different purposes. All-gated-encuentro is not sustainable, just as all-beginner-friendly becomes quickly burdensome for the veterans who carry the most responsibility for shaping culture.
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That sounds plausible, but I don't see practical evidence to support it.

On the one hand, egalitarian dance communities also need a suitable environment, meaning jobs with an academic focus or universities, public or private infrastructure, tango teachers and so on. Additionally is tango inherently elitist; it wouldn't work with the sample of people at the supermarket this morning. And due to the high turnover rate, quality only improves, if at all, over decades.

On the other hand, many high-end formats are very stable over time and in their participant structure. They have a low turnover, so require relatively few new members, and they can selectively attract them from a wide area.
 
opendoor said:
In my case, however, it was primarily about dancing with experienced but older dancers.
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Aren't you mixing the difference between why you started dancing with how social AT develops?

We all had different reasons for starting. Historically, allegedly, to meet young women - and then the traditional life of marriage, home, kids and, if possible as an escape from work, recreational dancing. A few side issues related to gangs, knives, betting, drinking, etc. It doesn't work with the supermarket queue because there are other options away from the daily grind. Nowadays it's a social dance with certain quirks and a different demographic.

The question here is in different circumstances - paying the debt, 'paying forward', to encourage existing dancers and invite new ones. It's not particularly valid for beginners nor intermediates, nor 'hotshots', nor those who have no interest in social events, or others. At some point beginners progress to novices, to intermediates, to the 'advanced' space. That's a very large space where there are no accepted, verifiable, levels. They mature and gain wisdom:cool: (ok, not all). Some have a philanthropic perspective and fall into promoting AT with milongas, even 'private' milongas, practicas, festivals, encuentros, TDJ, teacher, etc; others may see business opportunities there. Others just dance.

Yes, it's pleasant to dance with an 'advanced' dancer. What's not to like, unless they have an appalling personality? But, socially, it's also pleasant to dance with beginners, novices, and intermediates. But they're also dancing with someone who is considered 'advanced' (that may not be a high bar!)

High-end, elitest, formats die out unless they're fed. They age. They find other outlets. They discourage new recruits. They die.

But there's no magic, verified, validated, formula to build a tango community.
itwillhappen said:
I don't see practical evidence to support it.
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I've seen a few reports, primarily from the US, where teachers have encouraged a young social group with communal food afterwards, or other social activities. Probably comparable with evangelism.

TTanguero said:
My experience is that the high turnover period is mostly during the beginner hell period
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It is for most activities - gym membership, language learning, keep-fit, etc. People need a reason to go out, pay money, and meet others. Being, effectively, humiliated by not being asked to dance, or abused for not understanding some rules, or lectured (mansplained?) on some 'sequence', etc, isn't encouraging. It's easier, and cheaper, to keep those already there than to recruit new people. But, in a metropolis with a supply of 'fresh meat', this is ignored.
 
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Brummbaer said:
High-end, elitest, formats die out unless they're fed. They age. They find other outlets. They discourage new recruits. They die.
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Such events don't die because they're elitist, but if they're unfriendly and fail to deliver the expected quality. (A dedicated VIP table would be a clear warning sign for me.)

Elitist formats usually thrive on the fact that someone brings someone else along. Over the past year, I've taken my SO to regional monthly milongas where the registration process ensures a role balance. And there are hardly any tables there; instead, you sit and stand around the dance floor. That kind of setting isn't beginner-friendly (but there is a practica another day). And what can I say? My SO found it incredibly welcoming; basically, she's now spoiled for average local milongas.
 
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TTanguero said:
My experience is that the high turnover period is mostly during the beginner hell period. I know lots of people who dropped out within the first year or two, but very few after that.
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At least we have a stable midfield at some milongas. However, I see that only those with talent or a great deal of effort can leave this midfield and move to the top. (And someone who isn't good after two years will hardly ever become very good.) An implicit or explicit selection process solves the problem - for those inside the group.
 
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