Do do we ever pay off the debt?

[fiesta0618]

Thank you so much, @Brummbaer . My English simply is limited. I didn't look the phrase up and understood "pay off" (recoup/redeem) in the sense of settle/be free/get rid of.

Oh, I see now. English compound verbs are *actually* the worst.

Pay forward is actually a very special idiomatic phrase. The structure of it is intended to evoke the idea of paying back, which is an action that resolves a debt. But the fact that it uses the opposite term, forward instead of back, indicates that the debt is *not* repaid. Instead, you do a service that could be interpreted as creating a debt, but for which you do not expect repayment.

I think the shortest restatement of pay forward would be giving a gift, in karmic gratitude for a past gift given to you by a third person.

 

[Brummbaer]

Thank you so much, Brummbaer. My English simply is limited. I didn't look the phrase up and understood "pay off" (recoup/redeem) in the sense of settle/be free/get rid of/abbezahlen. Also excuses @fiesta .

Pay forward : Gib es an anderem weiter.

Es drückt die Idee aus, die erhaltene Freundlichkeit oder Hilfsbereitschaft an andere weiterzugeben, um eine positive Kettenreaktion zu erzeugen. Zum Beispiel, im Kaffeehaus bezahlt ein Kunde für seinen Kaffee und hinterlässt zusätzlich Geld, damit der nächste Kunde ebenfalls einen Kaffee haben kann, oder vielleicht in einem Restaurant bezahlt man einen Teller sodass obdochlose Menschen kostenlos essen können.

Ganz anders als abbezahlen.

 

[Brummbaer]

Such events don't die because they're elitist, but if they're unfriendly and fail to deliver the expected quality. (A dedicated VIP table would be a clear warning sign for me.)

There's always someone who thinks there's better food in the top table! It's not always true!

But, we all die (or at least degenerate before that). Unless the members are renewed, perhaps over a longer time interval, it dies. And there has to be an organiser/leader. Groups rarely organise themselves well.

 

[opendoor]

..Ganz anders als abbezahlen.

(where "~off" and "ab~" are etymologically related, by the way. And often, the close relationship between English and German leads to funny mix-ups and laughter.)

But sometimes an association also directs understanding, similar to a Freudian slip: one hears what one wants to hear. And at a certain point in my tango career, I simply didn't want to give anything back, to reinvest, to reciprocate, or to show gratitude to newcomers or old dancers.

 

[Brummbaer]

And at a certain point in my tango career, I simply didn't want to give anything back, to reinvest, to reciprocate, or to show gratitude to newcomers or old dancers.

I think that's part of the journey in today's social AT, or maybe any social dance. Somewhere between that transition from 'intermediate' (still thinking of steps) to that incredibly large space of 'advanced' (just do it), it changes. Sort of like looking everything up in a dictionary to 'fluency' in any language.

 

[fiesta0618]

Such events don't die because they're elitist, but if they're unfriendly and fail to deliver the expected quality. (A dedicated VIP table would be a clear warning sign for me.)

Elitist events eventually die no matter how friendly they are...unless they can attract no-longer-beginners who developed somewhere else.

The point is that elitist cultures are dependent upon beginner-friendly cultures for their survival. I wouldn't go so far as to describe the relationship as parasitic, but I would definitely say that elitist cultures are freeloaders on the hard work done by beginner-friendly cultures.

 

[Rabbit]

just as all-beginner-friendly becomes quickly burdensome for the veterans who carry the most responsibility for shaping culture.

We have too many veterans trying to "shape culture" in the tango scene.

 

[fiesta0618]

We have too many veterans trying to "shape culture" in the tango scene.

I have to say, I don't quite know what you mean by this. It seems it could be any of the following:

• There are too many people pulling in too many directions, and it causes friction
• There are lots of people pulling culture in a direction I personally do not agree with
• Lots of people who should not be influential try to be so, and it annoys me
• Veterans should not have outsized power to shape culture

Or maybe even something else.

What do you mean?

 

[Rabbit]

I have to say, I don't quite know what you mean by this. It seems it could be any of the following:

• There are too many people pulling in too many directions, and it causes friction
• There are lots of people pulling culture in a direction I personally do not agree with
• Lots of people who should not be influential try to be so, and it annoys me
• Veterans should not have outsized power to shape culture

Or maybe even something else.

What do you mean?

All of the above

 

[Brummbaer]

I have to say, I don't quite know what you mean by this. It seems it could be any of the following:

• There are too many people pulling in too many directions, and it causes friction
• There are lots of people pulling culture in a direction I personally do not agree with
• Lots of people who should not be influential try to be so, and it annoys me
• Veterans should not have outsized power to shape culture

Or maybe even something else.

What do you mean?

AT comes with an intangible cultural heritage of Argentina and Uruguay attached - by UNESCO. But there's no full definition of that 'culture', or even agreement. So you get parts of it elsewhere, promoted, sometimes pedantically, by some who claim the 'one true way'; ignored by others. It's not early 20th century France, or refined English society ballroom, or 1990's European, or modern day US or European (ignoring Oceania), or Finnish, or Yiddish, or Strictly/DWTS fantasia...

BR dances got defined - and have generally become 'just a dance'. Others just enjoy dancing! Any discussion around AT descends into the 'shape of the culture' in the contemporary context of the locale - especially choice and invitation of dance partner.

too many veterans

But I am intrigued as to who's a 'veteran', what defines them, and how they actually 'shape the culture'. Are they attempting to 'pay forward', but with conditions attached?

 

[fiesta0618]

But I am intrigued as to who's a 'veteran', what defines them,

Veteran status is mostly based purely on tenure, with a helping of social status. Veterans are a fixture of the community because they appear frequently and have done so for longer than most. Such a person tends to be respected, unless they act in ways that compel disrespect. Simply being consistently present and socially innocuous is enough.

and how they actually 'shape the culture'.

Veterans shape culture because newcomers see them as models. "Culture" is no more than the common values and accepted patterns of behavior in a group, so anybody that has long tenure and/or significant respect in a group can be expected to exemplify that culture. If they didn't, social friction and loss of respect from others would either have pushed them out or relegated them to lowly hanger-on status already. Newcomers, on social high-alert as they try to find their place in the new group, are incredibly sensitive to these things.

Because of that intense regard, veterans do not need to *try* to shape culture. On account of their status, everything that they do is an expression of the group's culture, which newcomers will then follow (or at least take pains not to antagonize).

In the modern world of social media, I think everyone understands that whatever you put on the internet exists forever and will be endlessly scrutinized by people with any interest in you. What I think fewer people reflect upon is that this is not actually a significant change from how social groups have always worked. Constant scrutiny in public has ALWAYS been the rule--the only things that social media has changed are the scale of visibility and the durability of memory. It has always been the case that some number of people are always watching you, and are subtly shifting their thinking and behavior in response to yours. Especially if they hold you in extremely high or extremely low regard.

Are they attempting to 'pay forward', but with conditions attached?

I think there are several patterns in play.

Most veterans, I think, either do not understand or seldom think about the fact that they are influential. After all, they have no title and no special skills--they are just another person out dancing, unchanged for the last decade! So they just do stuff, for their own private reasons, and do not consider the wider implications of the example they are setting.

Some veterans understand their position, and are intentional about the model they set. These are the leaders that we respect, although we may not agree with their views or goals.

Some folks who are not yet veterans also understand this dynamic, and try to project influence that they have not yet earned. Some get away with it, especially if they are charismatic; these are the "successful upstarts" that frequently annoy tenured veterans. Others do not; these are the "blowhards" or ones that "don't play well with others," and they generally get dismissed and sidelined over time.

 

[opendoor]

We have too many veterans trying to "shape culture" in the tango scene.

And once again I misread a post, because I saw 'vegetarian' and immediately wanted to agree.

 

[itwillhappen]

Elitist events eventually die no matter how friendly they are...unless they can attract no-longer-beginners who developed somewhere else.

"Problem" solved then.

The point is that elitist cultures are dependent upon beginner-friendly cultures for their survival. I wouldn't go so far as to describe the relationship as parasitic, but I would definitely say that elitist cultures are freeloaders on the hard work done by beginner-friendly cultures.

That's one way to look at it. However, that would apply equally to festivals and competitions - in other words, all occasions for women to wear their most beautiful dresses. So this view isn't likely to prevail. Perhaps one day, one's debts will be paid off, and one will be dancing somewhere else?

In reality, nothing develops from nothing; nothing exists without relation to something else.

 

[Brummbaer]

That's one way to look at it. However, that would apply equally to festivals and competitions - in other words, all occasions for women to wear their most beautiful dresses. So this view isn't likely to prevail.

It does apply. Festivals no longer run because there's no one left to go, or it's one-sided, or the organisers got fed up, or too old, or too expensive, or too exclusive, or... Ditto competitions - or they become meaningless and have no added value to participants (if they ever did).

Social AT has had a reason, and an infeed, for over a century, although not continuous. Other dances have had longer. Their original justification and their surrounding culture has gone, and they've changed, but, mostly, they've found some way to attract, and retain, participants. That may be in a restricted way, e.g. competition, or 'celebrity' suffering, but some in AT seem to have an active death-wish to abandon participants rather than retaining them.

 

[itwillhappen]

It does apply. Festivals no longer run because there's no one left to go, or it's one-sided, or the organisers got fed up, or too old, or too expensive, or too exclusive, or... Ditto competitions - or they become meaningless and have no added value to participants (if they ever did).

At some point, the commitment and endurance of organizers and volunteers will be exhausted, but I don't experience an accelerated decline. By the way, we've just decided to attend the tango festival in Metz, France, in April.

..., but some in AT seem to have an active death-wish to abandon participants rather than retaining them.

I've never experienced anyone being actively prevented from attending a milonga, and of course not when a festival with workshops costs quite a bit of money, plus travel and accommodation. Many people struggle with the everyday greetings; I attribute this to the widespread (and often fueled by advice columnists) expectation that you'll then dance with them soon after. Perhaps it's also an unintended side effect of the mirada/cabeceo and that some people use it to invite even during an ongoing tanda.

My SO, in particular, does a lot of "retaining work" within her circle of friends, also known as networking. It often helps if there's any interest in why someone hasn't been to a milonga in a while and if they're missed. Since the Corona crisis, it should also be clear to everyone that building a resilient personal infrastructure is essential.