Embrace...open or close?

[noobster]

Because we dance on the fore foot.

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Hm I really don't think that weight distribution over the foot is related to axial lean.

My heels never touch the floor in salsa and my axis is vertical. I am pretty careful to roll all the way through the foot and put weight on the heel at least briefly in tango, after getting feedback from a couple of different teachers early on that they couldn't feel where my weight was if I never touched down with the heel. (I have seen performers who never touch down, but I am comfortable with the idea that this is not helpful for social dancing.)

But I'm never as vertical in tango as I am in salsa. Even with the heel down I still have a forward orientation.

Overall I would say that my weight distribution is most related to the speed of the music. Linear salsa and milonga are too fast for me to get my heels down without losing responsiveness. Tango, cha-cha, cuban salsa, and WCS I think would all feel rushed without taking the time to weight the heel.

 

[Paja]

My opinion is - axis of both should be vertical every time (Maybe Volcada and Colgada are exceptions). You just move your axe forward to have it closer to your partner axe - close embrace or make more space between axes - open embrace. If axe of anyone is not vertical, then there is no balance, no stability, in pair. Especially followers from balroom scene tend to lean back and take leader with them.
There is one style even more closer then milongero - Canyengue style. But even then you need to dance with free - little bended knees, to keep your axe under control.

 

[itwillhappen]

Hm I really don't think that weight distribution over the foot is related to axial lean.

My heels never touch the floor in salsa and my axis is vertical.

It is intuitively clear to me - as a mechanical engineer - that in a vertical static model, the more weight I have on my forefoot and the lower my heel, the more I can lean forward.
The question is how relevant that is. We "cheat" in tango on many levels, consciously and unconsciously, especially in the knees and hips, and we can also go into a horizontal V-pose (@opendoor calls this "salon hold").

But I see quite a few couples cuddling, where the close embrace is an accumulation of detriments to their dancing.

 

[Brummbaer]

If axe of anyone is not vertical, then there is no balance, no stability, in pair.

Depends on your definition of axis, but if you don't lean forwards when in close hold then your feet get in the way of your partner. The aim is to create space below for steps whilst leading/following with the upper body.

Especially followers from balroom scene tend to lean back and take leader with them.

That's just a hangover from the myth of the smelly gaucho perpetuated in the ballroom style.

 

[Brummbaer]

Hm I really don't think that weight distribution over the foot is related to axial lean.

It needn't be. You can bend your knees and start to squat. It's just better (practically and visually) to have some degree of lean. I'd say more that it's like the clown with the big feet; it allows some lean, but not too much.

Does it matter which is the cause and which is the consequence?

 

[itwillhappen]

If axe of anyone is not vertical, then there is no balance, no stability, in pair.

Well, it's only more difficult. But then, in my opinion, the dynamics are often more stable. Basically, in tango that's my feeling of dancing together.

 

[noobster]

It is intuitively clear to me - as a mechanical engineer - that in a vertical static model, the more weight I have on my forefoot and the lower my heel, the more I can lean forward.

Why, don't mechanical engineers have knees or toes then?

If you stand with flat feet and lean forward a bit (probably regular dance position for you if you are a leader), then rise onto the balls of your feet, do you lose forward lean?

I don't. I think I might actually gain a degree or two. What happens is I shift more of the responsibility for maintaining posture to the small muscles in the forefoot. I lose stability (better for leading) but I gain reactivity (better for following).

 

[Elian]

Hmm. Well, given the nature of Argentine tango, its history, and how it has been danced, I'm also thinking that you may be in the wrong dance. Tango is very much about intimacy with your partner on the dance floor. It's about the embrace, and being in close contact with your dance partner. If you're not comfortable with that, maybe something like salsa would suit you better.

@ArbeeNYC I respect your opinion, I don't know how you do it but it is difficult to mantain that intimacy and close contact you mentioned with a person that you barely know, normally at leats for me, that is built over time, complicity...and other things

 

[JournalInTime]

I don't know how you do it but it is difficult to mantain that intimacy and close contact you mentioned with a person that you barely know, normally at leats for me, that is built over time, complicity...and other things

For many people, it comes over time: The more you really work on tango, the more you come to see close contact as necessary and sometimes even technical. The work starts to insulate you from whatever else you might feel.

I never had an issue with contact in tango. I come from a very "huggy" background and have greeted all my family and friends with hugs since I was young. Throughout my life, I've had as many female friends as male ones, and despite being a man who's attracted to women, that was never a problem for me. I've slept over at the homes of female friends. A couple of them liked to hold my hand while walking. I didn't find that odd.

My girlfriend had a huge issue with contact in tango at first. She comes from a family and community that doesn't hug. Most of her friends are female. Her father drilled it into her head that girls don't sleep over with boys. At first, she wasn't comfortable holding my hand while walking – even though we were in a couple! When she started tango, she found the close embrace intimidating and uncomfortable. After many years of working on tango, she now sees it as necessary for dancing and turns down men who dance open . . . even though she might not let the men she dances with touch her outside of tango.

Many people have to partition their brain into "tango" and "not tango," and use different standards of intimacy for each domain. I don't have to do that. My girlfriend does. If she couldn't, I doubt she'd continue to dance tango.

 

[itwillhappen]

I don't know how you do it but it is difficult to mantain that intimacy and close contact you mentioned with a person that you barely know, normally at leats for me, that is built over time, complicity...and other things

I think that's an understatement, in my first year the milongas were really bad at times. I didn't really know what was expected... to invite or not to invite ... open hold or close embrace ... and maybe someone can turn this music off? It was also not really pleasant for me if I trembled significantly at the beginning of a tanda.

But nobody said it would be easy. And somewhere it was clear to me that the limitations existed in my head, in my social imprint. It just took practice, it took time.

 

[Brummbaer]

I don't know how you do it but it is difficult to mantain that intimacy and close contact you mentioned with a person that you barely know, normally at leats for me, that is built over time, complicity...and other things

It's learned - either from your own culture from birth, or by learning, and maybe adopting, another.

Danced, in other forms, with different partners, for over 40 years, and still 'close' hold with other women in AT was initially 'disconcerting'. And still some recollection of a German dancer on a course in my pre-tango era just stripping everything off in the changing room to get ready. And the open-air winter swimming and sauna to which my wife took me (sadly, I'm myopic). So is adopting to a French business culture, or even a Germanic culture, after years in an Anglophone culture. e.g. la bise, handshakes, hugs, personal space, meetings!, the coffee break, deadlines, decisions, etc. Not to forget female engineers, developers and managers. (I can still recollect working on a navy ship in the 1970s with a female colleague. Special provision had to be made for her.) Fortunately some of the world is past that, even if other parts seem to want to return to the Dark Ages for women.

Get over it and learn, or seriously consider your future in that style of partner dance.

 

[opendoor]

..don't know how you do it but it is difficult to mantain that intimacy.. with a person that you barely know..

May I ask the reasons? Do you have low self-esteem or have you been traumatized by the opposite sex? Is there perhaps a moral authority trying to ban you from these contacts?

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Depends on your definition of axis, but if you don't lean forwards when in close hold then your feet get in the way of your partner. The aim is to create space below for steps whilst leading/following with the upper body.

This is true, but you don't need to lean forward very much. Mostly you and your partner need to connect tightly at the solar plexus *and* the woman needs to make sure her hips are clear and, thus, her legs, etc. You don't need a lot of space, because if you're tightly connected, the lead can project enough to create space for the next step, whatever that might be.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

@ArbeeNYC I respect your opinion, I don't know how you do it but it is difficult to mantain that intimacy and close contact you mentioned with a person that you barely know, normally at leats for me, that is built over time, complicity...and other things

Well, that's the mystery and the beauty of tango--the ability to create that sense of closeness with a stranger--for both parties.

 

[pianistamediano]

I respect your opinion, I don't know how you do it but it is difficult to mantain that intimacy and close contact you mentioned with a person that you barely know, normally at leats for me, that is built over time, complicity...and other things

I found it awkward as well when I started learning to dance in the close embrace - nothing seemed to fit right, I couldn't take a step without bumping into my poor partner, and it really took a toll on my self-confidence just as I was beginning to feel good about myself. I think perhaps this is one of the reasons you find it difficult - it is not something we do in daily life, and having to lead and focus on the music and all the tasks is incredibly difficult in the beginning. So anxiety, unfamiliarity, lack of confidence, physical awkwardness... all these I felt to some degree, which you may feel too.

Over time, I learned how to adjust my embrace for the follower, I built on my foundations (walking, intention, etc.), and it became my preferred embrace, so much so that dancing in the open embrace feels empty somehow. Both involve a connection to the music, but for me the close embrace focuses on the connection between the both of us, whereas the open embrace focuses on the steps.

Perhaps for me and some people, it is first and foremost a long and comfortable hug — whatever feelings you put into it, the follower can sense some or most or all of them, and they put in what they want to. It doesn't have to be romantic or s*xual — case in point, I've danced with women older than my mother. Comfort and (platonic) intimacy - closeness - is ever present, but the rest is up to you and your follower.

Ultimately, the decision is yours, but why not try to get used to it? If it does not grow comfortable for you despite trying for a bit longer, then let it be.