Emotional maturity or what is that we are looking at - Gavito Festival 2024/Gustavo Naveira - Giselle Anne ?

[JournalInTime]

I'd like to dance like some 'maestros', but I know I'm starting too old,

Same. I want to become as skilled as possible for a man who started tango at age 45 and who is now 57 – which I gracefully accept will never be "maestro" level – and I want to continue to dance as well as my age permits (which I accept won't be masterful) for as many years as possible. To that end, I work weekly with a coach who is older than I am, who started dance as a little girl and tango in her late 20s, who has 30+ years of tango experience, and who now devotes more hours to being a Pilates and yoga instructor than to being a tango teacher because it pays better and is safer for her body. I know that she has "been there and done that," and can show me how to dance sustainably.

More on topic: I've never once worried about power dynamics or inappropriateness in my coaching arrangement. My coach has devoted her life to body disciplines that mostly aren't tango, and that are taught mainly to people with disposable income, who hold all the power. Her livelihood rests on her flawless reputation – "I have never done anything inappropriate," sure, but most often, "I have never injured anyone," and, "I adhere to the letter of every contract."

Back off topic again: I don't care that my coach is female while I'm male, or mostly follows while I mostly lead. I have a life and dance partner to dance with, and I am not paying my coach to dance with me or my partner, in either role. I'm paying for an external eye to watch my partner and me, and to correct what we are doing based on decades of dance experience (in a dozen styles, not just tango) and fitness training (a wall full of diplomas). Our work is about technique, expression, and communication . . . we last discussed steps c. 6 years ago, so I don't need her to show me how to lead X. In rare situations where we need an example with a body more like mine, we bring in a second, male coach for the session.

Disappointed - in the sense of expected better, but we're all liable to err. Just don't put them up on a pedestal from which they will fall.

I have zero tango role models, and don't want any. I admire many dancers, but without their experience and, more important, physical and mental gifts, I cannot sensibly model myself on them. When I watch a live or recorded performance, it's to admire it as art, not as inspiration for my own tango. And my coach who's a woman who mostly follows rather than a man who mostly leads can't be a role model in any usual sense . . . though yes, she is the ideal I aspire to when it comes to respecting my body as I dance toward my 60s.

Of course, I'm not blind. I see milongas full of people attempting steps – mostly show steps – they saw some maestro do, usually with bad technique that will hurt them and/or their partner. I'm also not deaf, and hear these people talking about workshops and lessons with this or that maestro that they admire. I realize that many people do have role models and consider dancing like them now to be more important than being able to dance a small, subdued social dance when they're 80. That's their call . . . I'd rather be walking nicely at 80 than showing off at 57, and firmly believe that those showing off at 27 won't be in shape to dance at 60, never mind 80.

 

[itwillhappen]

I've come across too many led astray by 'role models' who abused their position. That's an aspect of the diminishing(?) media storm around this.

BTW, I just read this (anonymous) post in a tango fb group:

Why I Can’t Stay Silent Any Longer
– A Call for Reflection and Accountability:
Hi everyone, I’ve been sitting with this for a long time, feeling scared and unsure, but after seeing recent conversations within the tango community, I realize that I can’t stay silent any longer. What I’m about to share has shaken me, and it’s been difficult to process, but I need to speak up—for myself, and for the MANY others who may have experienced something similar. Last year, I traveled to Buenos Aires after taking online lessons for a year with a highly regarded female maestro (a HIGHLY REGARDED MAESTRA). I admired her work and naturally reached out for a private lesson when I arrived in BA. She suggested I also take lessons with her husband, who is equally well-known and respected. I agreed and scheduled a class.
The first lesson with him was amazing—no issues, just a wonderful tango experience. I was excited to return for more. But then, things shifted. During the second class, something felt off. His breathing changed when we danced. I tried to rationalize it, thinking, "Maybe it's just his style." But it also seemed like he was subtly trying to touch my breast during the embrace. It was so subtle that I kept questioning whether it was intentional or accidental.
By the third class, there was no question. As we danced, he started acting very turned on. Suddenly, he kissed me out of nowhere and began touching me inappropriately—right there, on the studio floor. This wasn’t just any studio; it was a private, tucked-away space in the heart of Buenos Aires with no windows. I was in complete shock. I froze. I couldn’t believe what was happening. Here’s a man who is married to someone I admire deeply, someone I respect, and I was there for a LESSON- not this. - it was beyond inappropriate.
I felt confused, scared, and disgusted. I can see that this is a very natural and NORMAL thing for him. I grabbed my things and left, but somehow I felt guilty for leaving. It was the end of the lesson this happened, and instead of confronting him, I just said, "I have to go" and walked out, still shaking. Afterward, I was in such disbelief that I couldn’t even bring myself to react the way I wish I had.
I thought, "Should I just take the next lesson and try to ‘end it well’?" I know—it sounds crazy now. But I was in shock. I called a friend who told me, without a doubt, never to go back, and I knew she was right. But at the time, I felt so conflicted. But I talked to a few others and immediatley texted him to cancel any other classes.
Later that week, I confided in another woman who is well-regarded in the tango community, and she urged me to report it to the police, to protect other women. I knew she was right, but I couldn't do it. Why? Because I was terrified that no one would believe me. He’s a maestro, I’m just a foreigner, and his wife had even recommended I take lessons with him. I thought I’d be judged, that no one would dance with me again, and that speaking up would cause a major uproar.- whats the point? Nothing will be done about it... I will be the one that takes the brunt of it... So I stayed silent.
Until now.
After watching that recent video from the Gativo festival, I realized that silence only protects those who harm others. I’ve been carrying this weight, scared to speak out, but now I feel I have to. I’m sharing this anonymously because I’m still afraid of the backlash,
.... but I would like to know:
Would you believe a woman who called out your favorite male maestro?
Would you doubt her and question the scenario?
Would you think she was being too dramatic or making it up?
Or would you stand by her, even if it meant risking how you're perceived in this community?
would you also be afraid to share if this happned to you for fear of a judgement from others?
These are the questions I’ve been asking myself, and now I’m asking them of you.
Thank you

 

[itwillhappen]

I realize that many people do have role models and consider dancing like them now to be more important than being able to dance a small, subdued social dance when they're 80. That's their call . . . I'd rather be walking nicely at 80 than showing off at 57, and firmly believe that those showing off at 27 won't be in shape to dance at 60, never mind 80.

I don't need a role model for the dance style, for me it's more about what role tango plays in the rest of my life and how I deal with the challenges. Well, ultimately you don't know how they would do it, you probably project it onto suitable people.

But honestly, how someone dances at 27 doesn't allow you to draw conclusions about how it will be at 60 or 80, that's also a projection. Hey, people at 27 might hurt themselves if they fall out of a tree, you might hurt yourself getting out of bed. As I recall, you sometimes have to take painkillers just for dancing...

 

[Brummbaer]

BTW, I just read this (anonymous) post in a tango fb group:

Yes. It happens. AT isn't unique in this respect. Pick any sport, pastime or activity, civilian or military, where someone can abuse their authority in the situation. Although males are the majority, it's not just males who may be perpetrators. The problem is how to deal with it. Sometimes there's no evidence; it's one person's word against another. Who to believe? Sadly, some have cried 'wolf', but it needs to be investigated and recorded. But what weight does it carry against other crimes? A trail of such incidents is probably indicative. It may not be revealed for years, so you're looking at a balance of probabilities.

If proven, what to do about it in society? Punishment, yes. Lifetime incarceration? Some remedial programme? Are they going to be some burden or threat to society for the remainder of their lifetime without a job?

Whilst the cited incident of this thread heading was glaringly public, it doesn't allow us to infer further conclusions without evidence.

 

[JournalInTime]

But honestly, how someone dances at 27 doesn't allow you to draw conclusions about how it will be at 60 or 80, that's also a projection.

Up to a point. Some guy dancing on tippy-toes all the time at 27 will not, if still doing it at 37 and 47, have great foot health for dancing by 57. A crooked back and dissociation at the same time is a great recipe for a herniated disc. These sorts of "predictions" are actuarial, sure, but a doctor, physiotherapist, or whatnot can tell you the odds, and if they're high, I'm not one to bet on them.

To be clear, I don't mean, "Yeah, that's a little too rough or fast or crooked to be good technique." I mean the people almost literally bent in half, their toes turned in, one shoulder higher than the other, as they drag partners around with force. And no, that's not a made-up person, but applies to two or three people I see whenever I go dancing.

As I recall, you sometimes have to take painkillers just for dancing...

Between a slip on the ice in 2018 and "long COVID" since 2022, I have a few aches and pains unrelated to dancing, but the painkillers in question are a couple of ibuprofen. That wouldn't do much for a herniated disc or torn ligament.

 

[Rabbit]

BTW, I just read this (anonymous) post in a tango fb group:

My impression has always been that incidents like the one that sparked this thread are merely the tip of a very large iceberg of unprofessional behaviour.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

That sounds like the master-student relationship you are referring to.

But not necessarily a role model.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

You may have never experienced this in such depth, but the role model opens up a completely new approach to the world.

In that case, I'd say such people are few and far between.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

So it’s great to somehow have both or have one main teacher that’s the same gender + an advanced partner that’s the opposite.

If only!

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I'd rather be walking nicely at 80 than showing off at 57,

Same. Although I'm past 57.

 

[itwillhappen]

My impression has always been that incidents like the one that sparked this thread are merely the tip of a very large iceberg of unprofessional behaviour.

We'll see. There was a second post in the FB group in which the name was revealed, a well-known name.
Well, both posts have since been deleted, so that's the end of the matter for me as a literal old white man.

Not?! Really?! Okay, then a spoiler: I'm currently watching a video of the two funny guys with different feet...

 

[Brummbaer]

We'll see. There was a second post in the FB group in which the name was revealed, a well-known name.
Well, both posts have since been deleted, so that's the end of the matter for me as a literal old white man.

Not?! Really?! Okay, then a spoiler: I'm currently watching a video of the two funny guys with different feet...

And there's the problem. Rumour, hearsay and innuendo do not make a case at any level. Factual evidence is going to be, at best, sparse and probably non-existant. Until someone stands up, names names, and gets others to corroborate with similar stories, it's one person's word against another. Sure, they might sue for libel - and the complainant is on shaky ground. That's where 'balance of probabilities' comes in.

Assuming the truth of this, and similar stories, perhaps the best response might be to consider what makes people act like this and to 'educate' that it's not acceptable behaviour. But there's no sanction that can be applied, and some sections of society, of both sexes, have some strange, to me, kinks in their relationships. We're now also missing some accepted 'moral code' (not that attitudes were better then).

We've already had a nunber of perpetrators hiding in plain sight, so I guess that's why Strictly in the UK has introduced CCTV and 'chaperones' for training - but then there's still some questions, despite denials from both, about what the public thought they saw and concluded.

 

[itwillhappen]

And there's the problem. Rumour, hearsay and innuendo do not make a case at any level. Factual evidence is going to be, at best, sparse and probably non-existant. Until someone stands up, names names, and gets others to corroborate with similar stories, it's one person's word against another.

This second "case" seems to be quite clear, the descriptions are not far apart and chat logs have been published:
He thought he was a great guy, that she would enjoy it if he seduced her with groping and kissing.
Well, she didn't enjoy it, on the contrary, she was outraged and upset, and stopped the rest of the privates.
You can learn from this: don't think you're a great guy, even if a woman likes to dance with you.

I recently stayed overnight at a tanguera while I was traveling through. With the full program: dinner, milonga, wine afterwards. On the dance floor I can touch her intensely, outside of the dance floor in a casual way, and I tried it in now way inside her apartment. If a woman likes it differently (which does happen), she can show it clearly, anything else is really risky. But to assess that, you first have to come down from a tango high.

 

[Brummbaer]

This second "case" seems to be quite clear

It isn't clear. Although an 'explanation' has been published (comments to funny guys with different feet!). Allegedly an 'open' relationship and a rejected potential partner. Potentially 'revenge'?

Need to emphasize the 'alleged' and no corroborating evidence, except some statement that some event occurred. Given the relationship, possibly even a collection of 'consensual' previous bodies yet to emerge. Who to believe?

Guilty until proven innocent? Body cam necessary in all situations? Has society deteriorated to this?

 

[itwillhappen]

It isn't clear. Although an 'explanation' has been published (comments to funny guys with different feet!). Allegedly an 'open' relationship and a rejected potential partner. Potentially 'revenge'?

In the FB group, where both parties took away each other's anonymity, both parties also published matching WhatsApp screenshots from before and after the private lesson, and one direct contact at the time testified for the female customer. Apart from the general claim made by the tango teacher's wife, there is so far no notice of a consensual affair or an act of revenge after two years.

And hey, we don't have to wait for a court-proof picture, nor would he be the first Argentinian tango teacher to want to sleep with a tourist after a private lesson {*]. That can be seen as a risky situation, asking a taxi dancer to fasten a bra in the locker room would still be higher. By the way, the male-boy practicas while the shortage of women in the early days of tango were certainly no picnic either.

[*]

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