Emotional maturity or what is that we are looking at - Gavito Festival 2024/Gustavo Naveira - Giselle Anne ?

[Brummbaer]

both parties also published matching WhatsApp screenshots from before and after the private lesson, and one direct contact at the time testified for the female customer.

I haven't seen that 'evidence', nor looked for it, so can't comment.

Nevertheless such situations become complicated as more details emerge. Both can be right from their own contextualisation. And AT is not unique. I've read similar in other activities, and of the roles being reversed (usually prompting the response: 'What man would object?'), or of same sex. Numerous examples of abuse of power in many spheres of life from religious orders, business, work, sport, dance, etc, etc.

'Consensual' can be abused as a justification, and 'revenge' can be misattributed as an explanation. Life can be complex! It used to be a humorous joke about having a 'mutual contract' for a date, but now it seems to be deteriorating to something similar. Just thinking back, we've had to sign a health/injury disclaimer agreement with some professional dance teachers; others haven't bothered.

But the question remains about what to do about such instances. And we're far away from the original public situation. Certainly high profile cases in the US (including ex-president Trump) which have been proven in court. An emerging case in the UK with many allegations against a deceased business owner for alleged events over many years. Are these effective? One appears to have little impact on half the population and is ignored - even by women. In the UK the alleged perpetrator is dead. Is there a claim on his company that some knew and should have done something? What's the motive for raising it now?

What to do about it? The public isn't a sufficient deterrent as seen from the Gavito example (and from the evidence that was a public breakdown). Legal action and steep financial recompense doesn't hurt enough. Cameras can't cover every location and they can 'fail' at significant times. Moral codes and contracts haven't been sufficient to stop some historically.

 

[Paja]

Considering this case of BA tange teacher and lady reporting abuse from his side, there is no excuse and strictly NO WAY. I am teaching begginers in my free time, we have lessons with my wife as AT partner. Is not easy to explain to followers to use body, chest to chest as intensivelly as they can to feel leading in close embrace. I am encouraging students to consider both in pair as source of energy, information and finally giving and receiving pleasure of dancing. And if followers really do it, they are vulnerable to such kind of harrasment. For this reason it is for me again NO WAY.

 

[itwillhappen]

And if followers really do it, they are vulnerable to such kind of harrasment. For this reason it is for me again NO WAY.

What does that mean in concrete terms? Should women be banned from taking (or giving) private lessons with men?

 

[Brummbaer]

I am teaching begginers in my free time, we have lessons with my wife as AT partner. Is not easy to explain to followers to use body, chest to chest as intensivelly as they can to feel leading in close embrace.

In that situation you each have a chaperone, and you're in a group. Risk reduced. See also the thread Feeling your partner's steps

 

[Brummbaer]

What does that mean in concrete terms? Should women be banned from taking (or giving) private lessons with men?

Interesting dilemma! People should feel safe. I suppose reputation and experience. Sensibly, do you go for some private lessons in someone's apartment where you don't know them? I know. It's happened. And they weren't 'safe'. It's a risk. You might, sensibly, seek to mitigate that risk, but it only goes so far. (Note that I'm not saying which way round that happened. Could be either sex, but one is more likely)

 

[itwillhappen]

But the question remains about what to do about such instances. And we're far away from the original public situation.

Provocatively listed:
1) Don't overimagine everything that could happen but hasn't happened yet. [*]
2) Don't prevent anyone from expressing themselves and representing their interests. [**]
3) Don't confuse labor and private law, especially country-specific legal systems, in a layman's manner.

It is constantly emphasized that the majority of women, if not all, have experienced sexual harassment at some point. This is already priced into tango, so to speak. There is no new information that forces immediate action. Changes in the framework conditions can certainly be made slowly and carefully.

[*]
Soon I will be sharing a hotel room with a dance partner, two beds, three days, no chaperone , no cameras . For her the event is exceptionally attractive, for me less so, a single room would be too expensive for me. It saves both of us a relatively large amount of money, the risks are implicitly weighed up against this (just like with private lessons). Of course she can see red flags and say NO WAY. But that's completely pointless, it was their suggestion.

[**]
This (German) newspaper article takes up a non-representative survey of mainly scene club dancing, but also tango:

Sexuelle Belästigung beim Tanz: Tatort Tanzfläche

Zahlreiche Frauen berichten von sexuellen Übergriffen in der Tanzszene. Dahinter steckt ein System aus Täterschutz und Schuldzuweisungen an die Opfer.

taz.de

And of course the relevant interest groups want to establish contact persons, committees, processes, as well as the financial resources for this, that's their job.

 

[Brummbaer]

And of course the relevant interest groups want to establish contact persons, committees, processes, as well as the financial resources for this, that's their job.

I guess an answer is to make a scene about it there and then. Not easy! And it may be denied. Of course a deliberate scene can be engineered with no cause. A minority. Later gives opportunities to say it didn't happen, or wishful thinking, or responding to something... You'd think the sisterhood, at least, might bond together for active pest suppression.

Situations I've observed (few) have been dealt with there and then.

The underlying problem seems to be the sexual viewpoint of a pubescent male with an inappropriate 'hero', or role model. Some don't seem to grow up to be responsible adults.

I can only think that better education has potential, although that too has problems.

 

[Bailango]

Considering this case of BA tange teacher and lady reporting abuse from his side, there is no excuse and strictly NO WAY. I am teaching begginers in my free time, we have lessons with my wife as AT partner. Is not easy to explain to followers to use body, chest to chest as intensivelly as they can to feel leading in close embrace. I am encouraging students to consider both in pair as source of energy, information and finally giving and receiving pleasure of dancing. And if followers really do it, they are vulnerable to such kind of harrasment. For this reason it is for me again NO WAY.

There is a risk indeed. However what that lady reported was clearly crossing the line by the instructor. Based on what she wrote and perceived, he was clearly using dance lesson as a pretext for getting into her pants or something that does sound kosher.

The lady very clearly articulated the thought process and what was going on in her mind. She was clearly in denial by her own account and was trying to convince herself that he might not be taking undue advantage during the lesson. Only in the hindsight she realized what did happen. That’s not surprising. People not protesting is not the same as consent.

it takes high degree of emotional intelligence on at least one of the two parties. Either the lady student should have clearly demarcated the boundaries that shouldn’t be crossed. That can be difficult for some ladies to do, some are tactful enough to get their point across and a few can be blunt. On the instructor’s part it is better to explain “why” for everything he is doing and teaching. He also needs to be able to sense discomfort. In my experience many people are not attuned to be able to sense discomfort in others.

Many ladies take private lessons from male instructors. Some of them known womanizers. Not everyone gets hit upon. As soon as a womanizer realizes there is no scope with you he will quickly cut his losses and move to the next victim. For them it is about maximizing their chances.

A proper communication can go a long way to avoid misunderstandings. If a lady is suspicious, it is best to avoid her as a student.

Other thing you can do is place multiple cameras in the studio where you are giving privates. The camera feed will be handy evidence if there if ever a dispute.

 

[Bailango]

The underlying problem seems to be the sexual viewpoint of a pubescent male with an inappropriate 'hero', or role model. Some don't seem to grow up to be responsible adults.

It is a lot more complicated than that. Above is very simplistic theory. I heard it many times. I disagree.

- Some men are just plain awkward in how they behave without been self aware or aware how their behavior is perceived by women
- Some men are blindly copying something they seen another man do and succeed.
- Some men are manipulative and seeking to take advantage where they find it.
- Some are upright and good citizens, but their actions can be misconstrued when there was no intent of anything.

Women are not always good at judging which man fall where in the above category. The middle two are the problem. The first and last are not.

Coming to women

- Most will give a benefit of doubt to a man beyond reasonable time.
- only a few have tact of drawing a line and making sure that a man they are interacting with doesn’t step across.
- greater the social status of a man, the more leeway a woman will give him.

So if middle two type of men meet a woman who is in the first and the last category, there is greater chance of them doing something that women may not have consent to. To these men a lack of protest is a sign of consent. They can gaslight the woman if confronted.

Beyond that men and women can give conflicting difficult to read non-verbal signals to each other. Also the same action will be okay if done by someone you like and objectionable if done by someone you don’t like. That adds to further confusion.

 

[Naddrin Kentlar]

[**]
This (German) newspaper article takes up a non-representative survey of mainly scene club dancing, but also tango:

Sexuelle Belästigung beim Tanz: Tatort Tanzfläche

Zahlreiche Frauen berichten von sexuellen Übergriffen in der Tanzszene. Dahinter steckt ein System aus Täterschutz und Schuldzuweisungen an die Opfer.

taz.de

And of course the relevant interest groups want to establish contact persons, committees, processes, as well as the financial resources for this, that's their job.

I've red the article and there's some points there .. however .. this one ??? Please tell me it's a translation issue:

The program manager admits that this is sometimes not easy. Some women say they were victims of the same man who had unprotected sex with five women at the same time under the false promise of monogamy. He also frequents the Soda. When the fraud became public, they say they demanded consequences from the Soda.

Der Programmmanager räumt ein, dass dies manchmal nicht einfach sei. Einige Frauen erzählen, Opfer desselben Mannes geworden zu sein, der unter dem falschen Versprechen der Monogamie mit fünf Frauen gleichzeitig ungeschützten Sex hatte. Auch er verkehre häufig im Soda. Als der Betrug öffentlich wurde, hätten sie vom Soda Konsequenzen gefordert, erzählen sie.

So am I understanding this correctly ? A man lied about his character in order to sleep with a woman .. or five .. and somehow the Club is responsible?

 

[Brummbaer]

I heard it many times. I disagree.

Yes. It is overly simplistic.

I can only think that better education has potential, although that too has problems.

All the reasons, and more, that you say. However working on the principle that it's better, easier and cheaper to fix problems earlier. And some still fail to conform as we observe with other situations. Other ideas?

Punishment after the event may be considered by some a deterrent, but the perpetrators see, too often, that they get away with it. Who's going to believe that a woman was an abuser? A male may offer 'plausible deniability', or just deny due to time lapse between event and reporting, or 'that's what real men do', which, as you hint, is itself an incentive.

The biggest problem is the feeling that 'someone should do something'. But who? And what? Depends on where. If it's known at the venue, and 'proven', then they should take some action. Hearsay and rumour isn't adequate, however known (!) troublemakers are usually banned (but is it a sign of honour?)

There are many diverse situations but, if we take the specific problem in venues, I can't see how they can act unless they are immediately made aware of the problem, which means immediate action by those impacted. And, yes, it goes against the grain, so to speak, but the current attitude, however explained or excused, isn't working. Outside the venue it's not their problem and passes on to others.

 

[Brummbaer]

somehow the Club is responsible?

IMHO, only that he may be an undesirable customer. Depends on moral codes. Effectively shunned. But beyond that, I agree.

There's a search on for someone to be responsible and take action. But what action, and is it justified?

 

[Paja]

What does that mean in concrete terms? Should women be banned from taking (or giving) private lessons with men?

Definitelly not, but to take privat lesson could be risky if student do not have good or missing reference. And in our AT community people like to share experiencies with lectors. Big truth is - good reputation you have to build for years, but you can lost it in one moment. If I am giving privat lessons, strictly in my house and my wife is present, not in the same room, but still she is there, doing her own bussiness (cooking, ironing, reading book..). I cannot image to cross relationship student-lector.

 

[itwillhappen]

So am I understanding this correctly ? A man lied about his character in order to sleep with a woman .. or five .. and somehow the Club is responsible?

I would compare such excesses with the situation at milongas in some phases of the corona epidemic. Dancers and organizers sometimes speculated about the immunological status of third parties, collected data, created contact profiles, and exchanged information about them.
Of course, these people can now be accused of not knowing or deliberately disregarding essential principles of our constitutional order. But that's no use, and no one wants to hear that today either, because it was a kind of collective trauma that made a "self-defense situation" seem justified.

 

[itwillhappen]

Definitelly not, but to take privat lesson could be risky if student do not have good or missing reference. And in our AT community people like to share experiencies with lectors. Big truth is - good reputation you have to build for years, but you can lost it in one moment.

Well, only the misbehavior of people with a good to very good reputation really attracts public attention. So at least comparable to that of a Catholic priest.

If I am giving privat lessons, strictly in my house and my wife is present, not in the same room, but still she is there, doing her own bussiness (cooking, ironing, reading book..). I cannot image to cross relationship student-lector.

That's your side, you want to protect yourself as a teacher, that's not the problem in this thread. It's no use for a foreign teacher who is just passing through, and it's no use for a tourist in Buenos Aires either.

But here too: are your lessons really cancelled just because your wife has to go away urgently at short notice?