Emotional maturity or what is that we are looking at - Gavito Festival 2024/Gustavo Naveira - Giselle Anne ?

Sufficient mansplaining. Any female input based on experiences?
I’ve stayed out of this thread mostly, and it’s not because I have some trauma I don’t want to relive. I don’t. But I can share some observations and thoughts.
But first about privates.
100% of my private instruction were from either a local gay instructor with a decades long excellent reputation, taking place in a studio. Or from Argentinian or Colombian traveling couples teaching together in a borrowed home studio from mutual friends. (Where I’d be dancing with the guy while she observes and comments.) All very professional. In my dance education, no situations of risk. In my professional education, there were many many more opportunities for my instructors to take advantage of me coming to these men’s homes for private lessons, men who also had the opportunity to make or break my career or coerce me with promises. Yet I was lucky to only have had decent guys in that context, unlike many of my female peers.

Abuse of power. In the work place, in an educational setting, or on the tango scene, or anywhere where HE has a position of power over HER, it’s a delicate situation to handle when there are temptations, regardless whether they are about genuine consenting adults experiencing attraction or whether one part is taking advantage of a situation.

The problems of gender balance in the scene plays out when the better male dancers get the feeling they are semi-gods. When they experience, no matter which way they turn, eyes on them from one attractive woman after another wanting to dance with them, and many of them loading on their flirtatious tricks, just to get a dance, the guys can get pretty full of themselves and believe the ladies want more than the dance. And when they get the dance, they might up-play their pretend-attraction to clinch the next dance with him at the next milonga.
And maybe the ladies do want more. I know single ladies on the dance scene who’d like to find a significant other on the dance scene because it’s hard to balance or imagine balancing a romantic life with a non-dancer while continuing her dance life.
But I’ve also observed the occasional female attitude of ‘the sex is free, the real prize is the dance’. As in a willingness to almost prostitute themselves for free privates with guest instructors. Or simply having the desire to have a good dance partner so they can get into certain events together and have a guaranteed partner.
I recall observing one guest instructor that I saw in a few different cities ‘being cosy’ with ladies from each city, and once at a festival in yet a different city and several of those ladies were present, there were competitive glances and virtual daggers flying through the room. They each thought they were the special one getting maestro’s attention. If guys like that get too used to being so much in demand, he thinks he walks on water and can allow himself whatever he wants with women.
Maybe tango is so popular with women because they feel relatively safe there - considering the level of intimacy that is possible?
Maybe. It’s an environment where we can up-play our femininity and feel physical and mental connection with men (as a bonus beyond the pure dance), with the safety net of a social context. Would guy ‘X’ behave like an a-hole and ruin his reputation on the local scene? Probably not if he has been around for a while.

I still thing the tango world is a different case from many other contexts in terms of abuse. Because it’s just a leisure activity for most involved. There’s rarely a situation of power. Except in some of those case situations discussed earlier in the thread. And because there’s already a pre-selection of people. If you are very uptight about physical proximity and hotness in the dance, tango might not be your first choice.

Now, there’s another side of the coin that I’ve observed. A male dancer friend of mine had a major crush on one of his regular partners for years but he never dared to take the next step. I could tell while watching them that she was into him also. He asked me for advice about the mixed signals she was giving him. Well, for a lot of people, what happens on the dance floor stays on the dance floor. For others, the thoughts go beyond the dance floor but they decide to not act on them. But maybe she cherished their dance relationship much more than risking complicating their lives or simply not wanting to change anything. It’s the gift that keeps on giving. Year after year, the smiles, the eye contact, the proximity, the sparks flying. (I got to know her a bit later on and understood that off the dance floor they have very different values.)
So, obviously some guys abuse their power, others don’t dare anything.
Oh, I just thought of another friend who admitted that for him, tango is only about the conquest. He only worked hard to become a good dancer so he could score, and then, when he finally succeeds, he drops their dance partnership like an old tissue and moves onto the next obsession. And then he complains that too many woman are only in tango for the dance, and that it’s harder and harder to score. It used to be so easy for him. Now, he is in denial of his own diminishing market value, and he is not some big maestro who can get away with taking what he believes belongs to him.
 
There is a fifth category: beginners. And I've heard that male leaders are beginners for about their first ten years. You definitely can't expect a beginner to correctly interpret subtle signals under the stress of body to body fighting. So my deadline is in a year...
Cop out.
Being a "beginner" does not give you a get-out-jail-free card.
 
Whatever precautions are taken, there's a risk. I'm still slightly amazed at the TAZ article. Accepting that some form of abuse can happen anywhere, there's a risk assessment. The feeling seems to be that Someone should do something. But nobody seems to be that 'someone'. It's not notified immediately, or it's some hearsay. But someone should take some action. And then it's repeated, and apparently 'known', but they keep going back. The venue doesn't get boycotted by the group until something is done. The abuser isn't 'shamed'. Others from the sisterhood still go and participate.

I accept that there's some personal shame and embarrassment about this. Even self-blame. And, as a male, whilst I might sympathise, I can't fully understand. I can't see what gain there is, beyond something financial, in raising this abuse even years later - or when the perpetrator is dead.

Nevertheless, Nobody seems to want to be the Somebody to do something at the time.

Sufficient mansplaining. Any female input based on experiences?
Well, if a 5’2” female says/does something, there’s a 6’0” patronizing male looking down at her, and:

At Best, she is told: “Oh, why are you bringing this up NOW? What good do you think it’s going to do NOW, to raise this? Gee – what a tiresome thing you are. He’s just here to have some fun. Why not just let it go? Are you after money? Are you just being a troublemaker?” (Maybe, I guess, there is remote chance that it means that someone might actually be listening to her.)

But, maybe all she is told is: “Well, what did you expect if you wore that?” or “What did you expect if you didn’t specifically say ‘x’” to him?” or “Why didn’t you just leave?” You know, someone is kinda/sorta listening to her, but using it to kinda/sorta victim blame her.

And often, what she would be told is: “Huh? I don’t believe you. You’re making that up. Are your hormones over-reacting or something?”

Any of you males ever had a 6’7” basketball/football player glaring down at you, declaring that you are wrong, and demanding to know if you’re lying about something? What did YOU do?
 
I know single ladies on the dance scene who’d like to find a significant other on the dance scene because it’s hard to balance or imagine balancing a romantic life with a non-dancer while continuing her dance life.

That's the dream, I guess, for some dancers. I won't deny feeling very envious of couples who can enter and leave the milongas together. I tend to avoid dancing with the follower half of those couples, because those bittersweet feelings might find their way into my dance. Connection isn't enough, no matter how amazing it feels for the both of us; it's just an added impediment to all the usual things like mutual attraction, compatibility, etc. in a normal romance.

I've tried and failed miserably, and I've lost all but a little hope. And I very much doubt outsiders would 100% approve of me going to multiple milongas a week and travelling for marathons to dance with attractive female strangers, so maybe love and tango aren't meant to mix for me. Honestly, considering the current climate, I'm unwilling to risk any chance of being #MeToo-ed by asking anyone out unless they tell me straight to my face.

Most male leaders will only become even more wary because of the recent events, so if your single lady friends actually find someone they're interested in, I'd strongly recommend that they actually demonstrate their interest in the most obvious way possible, because women are not very straightforward even when they think they are, since men are not women. Otherwise, most of us would rather play it safe and not escalate things.
 
if your single lady friends actually find someone they're interested in, I'd strongly recommend that they actually demonstrate their interest in the most obvious way possible
I'd say some degree of subtlety is possible. Like with me, sure you have to deliver an engraved invitation in gold lettering, but sending it by messenger on horseback isn't strictly necessary on all occasions.
 
I'd say some degree of subtlety is possible.

subtlety is a deliberate addition of noise to the signal :)

Subtlety by very definition means plausible deniability. If men are guarding their reputation, subtlety alone won’t work. “Does she, doesn’t she” can mess up things in so many ways. Why take a chance :D
 
There certainly are men who commit crimes serially. It is also good to keep in mind there are the stalker types who obsess about one particular person, or criminals who are very selective. Sometimes both men and women will defend a selective abuser, since they personally have seen nothing but exemplary behavior.

Video is a good idea... for now... It won't be long before video is not admissible in court because AI deepfakes will be so realistic looking.

The Right Foot Left Foot channel took some heat for not recognizing Giselle's angst. There are some studies that show women are better than men at recognizing these things. Indeed, it is fodder for comedy how men have to ask "Are you mad?" Those who see these things more easily might need to spell it out for those who don't easily.
 
subtlety is a deliberate addition of noise to the signal :)

Subtlety by very definition means plausible deniability. If men are guarding their reputation, subtlety alone won’t work. “Does she, doesn’t she” can mess up things in so many ways. Why take a chance :D
You could see it as a side effect here, but I'm not familiar with such a definition, do you have a source for that?
I would say that you don't amplify the signal unnecessarily and thus make it clear to the receiver.

 
That's the dream, I guess, for some dancers. I won't deny feeling very envious of couples who can enter and leave the milongas together.
If you have lived the dream for a while, you might think differently about it. But of course you have to experience it yourself. And personally, just in case, I could also only imagine a dancing partner.

I've tried and failed miserably, and I've lost all but a little hope. And I very much doubt outsiders would 100% approve of me going to multiple milongas a week and travelling for marathons to dance with attractive female strangers, so maybe love and tango aren't meant to mix for me.
But what could be a more suitable alternative? Apart from the fact that the solo life, at least from a certain age, also has its advantages. Approaching a potential partner at the supermarket checkout is in my opinion much, much more difficult...

Honestly, considering the current climate, I'm unwilling to risk any chance of being #MeToo-ed by asking anyone out unless they tell me straight to my face.

Most male leaders will only become even more wary because of the recent events,
Well, there is a wide gap between blatant abuse of power in the professional sphere and a kind of attractiveness compensation in the leisure sphere. I don't believe that #TangoMeToo in itself, apart from a social media bubble, causes any significant climate change. It's still more about #MeTangoTooPlease.

so if your single lady friends actually find someone they're interested in, I'd strongly recommend that they actually demonstrate their interest in the most obvious way possible, because women are not very straightforward even when they think they are, since men are not women. Otherwise, most of us would rather play it safe and not escalate things.
Everyone will constantly try to adapt to the circumstances. But I see the social environment as the driving force. And maybe a shift in supply and demand by leading women, although in my opinion that is more of a problem for tango beginners. But why should women act "straightforward" when a romantic relationship in tango can also develop smoothly (or not) through workshops, events and travel?
 
Well, if a 5’2” female says/does something, there’s a 6’0” patronizing male looking down at her, and:

At Best, she is told: “Oh, why are you bringing this up NOW? What good do you think it’s going to do NOW, to raise this? Gee – what a tiresome thing you are. He’s just here to have some fun. Why not just let it go? Are you after money? Are you just being a troublemaker?” (Maybe, I guess, there is remote chance that it means that someone might actually be listening to her.)

But, maybe all she is told is: “Well, what did you expect if you wore that?” or “What did you expect if you didn’t specifically say ‘x’” to him?” or “Why didn’t you just leave?” You know, someone is kinda/sorta listening to her, but using it to kinda/sorta victim blame her.

And often, what she would be told is: “Huh? I don’t believe you. You’re making that up. Are your hormones over-reacting or something?”

Any of you males ever had a 6’7” basketball/football player glaring down at you, declaring that you are wrong, and demanding to know if you’re lying about something? What did YOU do?
So, essentially you're saying it's a lost cause because of some male attitudes and women should just accept what happens because of, essentially, bullying?

The only reason they bully is because people let them get away with it. And that doesn't imply there's an easy solution. The trauma, embarrassment, personal guilt feelings, etc for the victim are all too evident.
 
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