[Final Thread Title TBD…] PNP’s saga continues at the 2026 Manhattan Dance Championships (subtitle: The Best Blue Dress Ever)

[ProgressNotPerfection]

Anyway, for my own post-comp narrative

And speaking of a post-comp narrative, don’t forget about all the post-comp emotions. They run the gamut from happy excitement to dejected disillusionment.

Spoiler: It’s not a disorder, people!

It’s not a disorder. All of these feelings are normal. There are tons of discussions about this on DF already.

In the past week, I’ve been exhausted (daytime naps & early bedtime); wide awake at midnight (when do you think I write all this down?); elated (oooo! Pretty pictures! Pretty videos! What fun! Great dress!); disgusted (OMFG do I really flail my arms around that wildly? Do I really still have such lousy balance?); mortified (wow I am definitely aging…those darn high-def photos are soooooo unforgiving of wrinkles & cellulite & sagging & loss of elasticity); and proud (wow I look pretty good for my age, despite the things I just mentioned, and btw the dancing matters more than the aging, and also hey I guess I actually do have decent stage presence and also WOW I LOOK HAPPY OUT THERE).

I’ve also had some extremely negative thoughts, such as:

• This is a waste of money. I could be putting that cash to much better use. I’m ashamed of myself for exhibiting this degree of conspicuous consumption.
• Pro/am ballroom is just a money-making scam. All these female amateurs like me playing dress-up and pretending to be “real” dancers and all these male pros going along with it and taking their money…it’s The Emperor’s New Clothes all over again, because we all KNOW that we’re not “real” dancers and we all KNOW that our teachers are just doing their jobs, they’re not princes & we’re not princesses, who are we trying to fool with this crap?

But then I respond to these negative thoughts like this:

• It’s not a waste of money. I’m definitely spending a LOT of money, but it’s not being wasted. From dance lessons and competitions, I’m learning skills that I honestly doubt I could have learned anywhere else. Patience. How to trust another person. Acceptance that good enough is sometimes good enough. Acceptance that true learning takes time. Also, I’m getting a ton of regular strenuous exercise (so I don’t have to pay for a gym membership or exercise equipment), and a significant mental health boost (so I save money on therapy costs and meds – not joking). And I’ve met some really awesome kindred spirits in the world of ballroom. These are lifetime friendships.
• It’s not a money-making scam; it’s a business.

Besides, it gives me an excuse to write.

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

POST-COMP POSTMORTEM POSTPONED

Pro was out of town last week, so I haven’t seen him since we competed. I can’t really finish this story until I have at least one post-comp lesson with him, though I predict he will already have moved on from this experience & will be ready to resume rhythm lessons with me. We haven’t worked on anything but smooth since last November’s mini-match (at my insistence), but he has mentioned several times that he hoped (assumed) we would pick it back up after Manhattan, & he wants us to compete in silver rhythm & silver smooth if (when) we return to OSB this year.

Based on my previous dealings with him, I suspect he’ll have a realistic/practical view of how things went at Manhattan, & will say things like “it’s good to get more time on the comp floor, since that’s the only way to improve competition skills,” and will be positive & complimentary of my dancing. It would be out of character for him to be anything else.

So…I’ll keep you posted.

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

So I’ve obviously seen you talk about this before but it’s very interesting to me and makes sense how it teaches you to be a better dancer to be able to follow his lead through a multitude of things.

Can you talk about what started you on this vs routines? Was it easier or just how you wanted to learn? Or was it something that more transferred to other styles you do? Or is it just boring to learn routines and then just practice the same thing and you wanted something different?

I haven’t really talked to lots of other dancers who might do this but I am curious how many do or would prefer to and their pros don’t.

The discussion in this thread addresses your questions:

C

Thread 'choreography vs. lead/follow in comps?'

Dec 8, 2025

In competitions, does anyone else not do formalized choreography/routines during their heats and do pure lead/follow?

My instructor doesn’t want to give us formalized choreography/routines at the bronze level as she wants us to work on our floorcraft and mastering technique before introducing it when we get to silver.

My understanding this is an outlier, and that even at the bronze level, most pros will give their students routines for their heats at all levels.

Thoughts?

• chachacha
• Replies: 68
• Forum: Ballroom Dance

Enjoy!

 

[HappyLilac]

And frankly, even if placements DID matter to me, the details of the scores wouldn’t be all that helpful, because at any one particular comp, you don’t get enough data to reach any conclusions.

The hidden discussion makes my STEM brain very happy. It’s super hard to come up with good “quality metrics” because there are SO MANY variables that have nothing to do with dancing. Like even if you placed first in every round, it doesn’t mean you can say for sure that you danced better in a round with 15 couples than one with 2.

I’m in a an age/level where usually I have like 1-3 people against me so placements aren’t the most useful since I don’t have quarter or semifinals. So really all we have to go off of is videos and how it felt.

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

I finally finished uploading videos from Manhattan to my unlisted YouTube channel. There are 8 total. I included 2 singles (combined into one video) for each of the 4 dances; the semifinal & final of the championship; and the semifinal & final of the scholarship. For the most part they are unedited, although I did cut out a few segments where we were completely blocked from view (or where I made such an egregious & embarrassing error [in my eyes] that I’m not willing to publish it on social media, even on my unlisted channel).

If I am following you on DF, then you have access to the “About” section of my profile, which is where the link is to my playlist.

As I rewatched the videos, I noticed stuff I hadn’t focused on before, like:

• Our style of tango looks much more staccato than many others’. Idk if that’s good or bad or neither, but it’s definitely different. Maybe the character of American tango is changing? Maybe it’s just a “taste” preference? Dunno.
• Pro is REALLY REALLY REALLY good. I forgot how much I enjoy watching him dance! He does so many things in his dancing that I’m not aware of, don’t pay attention to, don’t necessarily need to know, but WOW I’m impressed when I finally pay attention to them.
  • “Need to know”…well actually, perhaps I DO need to be more aware of what he’s doing, so I can coordinate my arm movements to better match his. For instance, if we’re simultaneously exploding out to the side away from each other, & he’s shooting his arm straight out while I’m arcing mine up & over, it doesn’t look as good.
• I really don’t like seeing ladies with long hair wearing it down for smooth. It’s distracting & hides the line of the neck. And unless you’re a professional like Larinda, who spent many hours flattening & smoothing & silkening & spraying her waist-length sheath of pale shimmery golden hair, it doesn’t present the “finished” look I prefer. (To each her own, I know, and maybe the ladies with their hair down think I look stuffy & old-fashioned because I wear mine up. I’m just stating my preference.)
• My arm movements don’t bother me nearly as much as they used to. Sometimes they even look quite nice. (Other times…not so much.) It’s still fascinating to me to watch my wrists and fingers doing stuff I never told them to do!
  • Ok, I guess a more accurate way to say that is, “I am not consciously aware of telling them to do the stuff I’m seeing in the videos.” Pretty sure Pro has never told me to flick my wrists around like that, but sometimes, when it comes across as intentional, it doesn’t look too bad.
• The aqua dress I wore in the multis is so gorgeous. Magical. It frickin’ glows on the floor. What fabric can do that??? And where can I find more of it???
• The pink dress I wore in the singles is…well, it’s fine. Acceptable. Appropriate. Nice bright color. There’s nothing wrong with it, but there’s also nothing special about it - at least, not when I wear the aqua dress on the same day. I found a tag inside the pink dress that says “LeNique,” so I guess it’s a designer dress after all (I bought it used and fairly cheap from a lady in my studio, so I didn’t inquire about its origins). Clearly, when it comes to how well a dress works with my body, some designers are more equal than others (you win 1,000 imaginary points if you get that reference).
• Despite wearing a less-magical dress in the singles, I can see that I had more energy and focus earlier in the day. That’s disappointing…definitely something I’ll need to prepare better for at our next comp (e.g., fewer sets of singles, more frequent eating & drinking, and staying MENTALLY in high gear until I’m back in my hotel room for the night!). The scholarship should be my BEST dancing of the day, not just whatever I have left over by then.

I already mentioned above how much I enjoy watching Pro dance, but I gotta rave about him some more. The guy has FANTASTIC control over every muscle in his body, at all times, no matter what he’s doing or who he’s dancing with. When I watch the videos, I can see that he’s doing lots of the things he’s been trying to teach ME to do - and ohmygod he makes it all look so natural and effortless that I’m in awe. MAD RESPECT, DUDE! For real. I feel privileged to have him as my teacher.

Also, I know I’ve picked on him in this thread about his occasional scowls on the floor, and that’s not fair. He’s not here to defend himself (AFAIK), and the vast majority of the time he is really wonderful. Some teachers look like they’re out there just doing a job. Some look bored, others distracted, others downright angry. But the best ones - and I include mine in that category - look like they’re genuinely having a good time, both on and off the floor. And their students also look like THEY are genuinely having a good time too.

That’s another thing it’s hard to put a price on.

 

[joy]

Fiesta said: “It is absolutely the better commercial move for a photographer to charge in advance to photograph you than to capture everyone and sell singles later, because so much of dance photography comes down to luck”

It comes down to skill. But most commercial photographers are not dancers too, so they cannot tell when the peak of movements are, and capture dances in their progression to the peak.

PnP said: “So anyway, I’d told Pro that one of the reasons I wanted to make it to the scholarship final was so I could finally experience that. And hey presto - we did indeed make it to the scholarship final! But alas, there were no announcements of the couples in the final. We all just walked back onto the floor like any other heat. It felt a little anticlimactic at that point. (And I think that attitude was visible in my performance, unfortunately.)”

WHAT the heck! I thought Scholarships ALWAYS get introduced. It was such a great moment to be walked down and introduced at USDC.
But even in a tiny nearby comp I also got introduced in the straight final scholarship.

Loved your writing, will catch up on the rest later.

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

There are 8 total.

Well, NOW there are 8. I had forgotten to check the box for “save to playlist” on the video of the championship final when I uploaded it.

 

[Arun Garg]

WHAT the heck! I thought Scholarships ALWAYS get introduced. It was such a great moment to be walked down and introduced at USDC.

Definitely not always. Sometimes, for time's sake, the chairperson will choose to skip introductions and/or walking from the stage steps.
But yes, it is a lovely feeling when it does happen. At the National Championships at least, it is a priority in the minds of the organizers to have Scholarship finalists introduced by name.

 

[Arun Garg]

The aqua dress I wore in the multis is so gorgeous. Magical. It frickin’ glows on the floor. What fabric can do that??? And where can I find more of it???

Will second this! I recognized the dress from its lovely previous owners. It looked fabulous in person and on you/on the floor!!!!!

 

[j_alexandra]

some designers are more equal than others (you win 1,000 imaginary points if you get that reference).

puh-leeze
you're joking, Mr. Jones?

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

Will second this! I recognized the dress from its lovely previous owners. It looked fabulous in person and on you/on the floor!!!!!

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

puh-leeze
you're joking, Mr. Jones?

Ok, you get TWO thousand imaginary points (for getting the reference and using the farmer’s name)

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

it’s hard to form conclusions with such a small judging panel, especially once you factor in the random changes of judging panels for various events.

So yeah…this is even more true than I thought. I spent some more time looking at our specific results, and I realized that I incorrectly stated the number of judges in each event. Originally, I said there were 5 judges on the panels for the singles and 7 for the multis. in fact, there were:

Panel A: 5 judges on the panel for our first five sets of singles (including the B1 Int Silver semis & finals, so that was a total of 6 rounds/24 dances)

Panel B: 5 entirely new judges for our 6th set of singles (B1 Full Silver semis & finals, so that was 2 rounds/8 dances)

Panel C: 7 judges for the L-C Closed Silver championship semi, championship final, and scholarship semi (3 rounds/12 dances)

• 2 of whom had been on Panel A
  • 1 recalled us for all 4 dances from the championship semi & then placed us 5th in the final; & also recalled us for all 4 dances from the scholarship semi
  • the other one recalled us for 2 of 4 dances from the championship semi & then placed us 6th in the final; & recalled us for 3 of 4 dances from the scholarship final
• 2 of whom had been on Panel B
  • 1 recalled us for all 4 dances from the championship semi & then placed us 5th in the final; & recalled us for 3 of 4 dances from the scholarship semi
  • the other one also recalled us for all 4 dances from the championship semi, & then placed us 6th in the final; & recalled us for 2 of 4 dances from the scholarship final
• 3 of whom had not seen us before (had not been on Panel A or B)
  • 1 recalled us for all 4 dances from the championship semi & then placed us 4/4/3/5 in the final; & recalled us for 3 of 4 dances from the scholarship semi
  • 1 recalled us for all 4 dances from the championship semi & then placed us 6/3/3/3 in the final; & recalled us for 2 of 4 dances from the scholarship semi
  • 1 recalled us for zero dances from the championship semi & then placed us 6th in the final; & recalled us for 1 of 4 dances from the scholarship semi

Panel D: 9 judges for the L-C Closed Silver scholarship final (1 round/4 dances)

• 6 (SIX!) of whom had never seen us before (had not been on Panel A, B, or C)
  • 3 of those 6 placed us 6th in all 4 dances
  • the other 3 placed us either 5th or 6th in all 4 dances
• 1 of whom had been on Panel A - she placed us 5/4/3/3 in the final
• 2 of whom had been on Panel B
  • 1 placed us 3/3/3/3
  • the other one placed us 5/6/6/6

**********************************************************************​

Random observations that may or may not be relevant, but I found them interesting:

• The only two judges who consistently gave us high marks (lots of 1s & 2s & recalls) - our best scores all day, in fact - were on Panel A only
  • that might mean we danced better earlier in the day
  • that might mean those two judges happened to like our style of dancing better than the other couples’ styles in those events
  • that might mean we would have placed higher in the championship & scholarship had they been on Panel C and/or D (unless the high scores were only because we danced better earlier in the day)
• In the scholarship final -
  • no judge who had not been on an earlier panel placed us higher than 5th in any dance
  • no judge who had been on an earlier panel placed us last in all 4 dances
  • the only judges who placed us 3rd or 4th in any dances had been on an earlier panel

Random conclusions by PNP:

• Some judges simply don’t like the way a couple dances, & if that’s the case, then that couple will probably not place well, no matter how well they perform.
• A judge’s familiarity with a couple makes a difference, & that could be either good or bad. If they’ve judged you earlier in the day (or at previous comps) & have a generally good impression of your dancing, they may judge you according to their unconscious (?) bias in your favor. The reverse is equally true.
  • I know there are exceptions to this. Some judges are able to remain wholly objective, and issue placements based solely on the dancing of all couples in that specific heat, whether they know them or not or have previously judged them or not.
• No matter how magical the blue dress you’re wearing in the scholarship final is, if your dancing is lacking in energy and technique, your placements will probably reflect that.
• Obsessing over judges’ scores and marks and placements is unlikely to lead to anything productive.
• Spreadsheets are fun and satisfying.
• I am a highly skilled procrastinator.

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

though I predict he will already have moved on from this experience

I was right (though we did watch a few videos together & discuss plans for improvement)

will be ready to resume rhythm lessons with me

I was right again (& it was fun!!! Went WAY better than I’d expected!)

I suspect he’ll have a realistic/practical view of how things went at Manhattan

And right again

will say things like “it’s good to get more time on the comp floor, since that’s the only way to improve competition skills,”

Aaaaaand emphatically right again

will be positive & complimentary of my dancing

Well, yes, mostly right about that. But his “realistic/practical” view applied to my dancing as well as the comp in general. We both think that my dancing at MDC didn’t suck, and that I’ve significantly improved since our last comp (jeez I should hope so, since that was 20 months ago). But we both feel that I did not dance my best that day; i.e., that I am currently capable of doing more/better than I did at MDC.

Don’t get the wrong idea…he was not critical of my dancing & did not start yesterday’s lesson by saying something stupid like, “ok we really need to talk because that was disappointing.” He approached it cautiously, asking me neutrally how *I* felt about the comp. When I summarized my assessments of my performance in a clinical manner, using the videos as visual aid examples, he did not disagree with most of them. (In our previous post-comp discussions, when I’ve said things like “I didn’t feel like I danced my best,“ he has vehemently argued with me if he disagreed, and explained why I’m wrong. But he did not argue with me yesterday.)

And it turns out he likes my backless pink LeNique dress more than I do, which is ironic.

Anyway, I stand by my original conclusion: competing at MDC was a whole lot of fun and a wonderful experience for many, many reasons, and I’m not disappointed in our placements (though I AM mildly disappointed in my own performance). I will happily go back there in future.

 

[fiesta0618]

Well, yes, mostly right about that. But his “realistic/practical” view applied to my dancing as well as the comp in general. We both think that my dancing at MDC didn’t suck, and that I’ve significantly improved since our last comp (jeez I should hope so, since that was 20 months ago). But we both feel that I did not dance my best that day; i.e., that I am currently capable of doing more/better than I did at MDC.

Don’t get the wrong idea…he was not critical of my dancing & did not start yesterday’s lesson by saying something stupid like, “ok we really need to talk because that was disappointing.” He approached it cautiously, asking me neutrally how *I* felt about the comp. When I summarized my assessments of my performance in a clinical manner, using the videos as visual aid examples, he did not disagree with most of them. (In our previous post-comp discussions, when I’ve said things like “I didn’t feel like I danced my best,“ he has vehemently argued with me if he disagreed, and explained why I’m wrong. But he did not argue with me yesterday.)

When I have a "meh" day on the floor, I like to compare it to both my floor and my ceiling. I'll say things like, "I think that was about 65% of our best quality. At the same time, I think we would have been delighted with it 2 years ago."

Helps me acknowledge both the slow march of progress, as well as the fact/possibility that the team needs to find a better strategy to rise to the occasion when it matters.