joy
Forum Master
What are muscles that keep shoulders down?
Find those muscles, strengthen them outside class.
Then practice keeping shoulders down while dancing your move slowly in front of a mirror, over and over again.
Do that every day.
Finding and keeping frame
- Thread starter riegera2412
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Find those muscles, strengthen them outside class.
Then practice keeping shoulders down while dancing your move slowly in front of a mirror, over and over again.
Do that every day.
riegera2412
Member
Thanks for your reply.
It isn't so much that I cannot pull them down "into" the socket (if that is phrased correctly in English). They just don't stay there. Sometimes I must extend my entire arm because I am to far away from the lead.
Not sure if it as much as it needs to be for dancing, but my shoulder muscles should be sufficiently strong from swimming 3 times a week.
Regarding your former post, yes, I think my body awareness is not great at all. I am a head person and I cannot for my life figure out how to be aware of my body when moving when simultaneously doing other things like stepping, dancing figures or paying attention to the lead. Also, I tried a couple of youtube videos to increase my skill and work on body awareness, but I just don't get what people in them want from me. Teaching body awareness by describing an exercise without describing what it feels lke if I am doing it correctly is just pointless. It is just the same with me being told I am too stiff or too flexible. Maybe it is just me not being able to do it the right way. I have read a couple of time, that there are people who cannot dance. The more I think about it the more I feel I am one of them.
Anyways, enough ranting. It doesn't help me get better. For now the only option I have is keep dancing and hope that my frustration is not catching up faster than the improvement of my skill is. I am probably over obsessive by now with it. I even started dreaming about dancing and not being able to. I just don't understand why it is so hard for me.
joy
Forum Master
They are strong in a different way.
The time you spend ranting, you should be in front of the mirror practicing the movement with your shoulders down.
There are plenty of untalented dancers who become very good, they just spent a lot of time practicing. At some point, they catch up to talented dancers who do NOT spent enough time practicing.
Self-learning something like dance from YouTube is pretty much never effective. You should hire a teacher for private lessons. An in-person teacher can answer all these questions and more--including validating all the feelings you're not sure about.
I don't believe it. I'm not at all talented, and nothing about dance has come naturally, and I've been able to make something of myself (just as @joy describes). But for folks like me and you, group classes do not provide enough individual guidance.
riegera2412
Member
Pushing my shoulders down in front of a mirror aline certainly doesnt help. I guess I should be doing moves/figures and focus in my shoulders while doing them. Any tips on how to practice this alone? I live alone and dont have a dance partner to practice with. I tried using resistance bands tied to a door knob but dont know if that is effective because I have absolutely no trouble keeping my shoulders where they should be with the arm connected to the resistance band. However, it "looks" like I am doing T-rex arms now. No idea what I should do different. Instruction videos in YouTube are not very helpful.
riegera2412
Member
A private tutor would be great but there are none where I live. Due to work my free time is kind of limited so I could only do private lessons on the weekend since I had to travel a bit. Also, private lessons are pricey for someone with my income. I get those private lessons might be really helpful and much more effective, but at my current situation they are not an option.
I'm not an expert, but I see two possibilities for improvement:
1. Don't try to pull the shoulder "into" the socket. That immobilizes the arm. Try to pull the shoulder blades down and the shoulders will also lower without affecting arm mobility.
2. Don't be too far away from your partner. Always hold some arm length in reserve (bent elbow) so the arm has space to move. An extended shoulder joint is a "broken" frame. In swing dances both the leader and follower must place their feet so that their upper bodies can maintain flexibility (a "free spine") even when in stretch. It's hard at first to judge the appropriate distance to allow for the stretch. You can practice with a resistance band to find where your hips and feet need to be to keep from breaking your frame.
riegera2412
Member
Sounds like Solid advice. The Challenge however is
1) I cannot just pull down my shoulders blades. There are also other parts involved also for some reasons my upper arm muscles tighten as well. I am not sure if they are supposed to.
2) This sounds a lot like the advice I get from my teachers. Problem ist, what is my frame, how does it feel and how do I get there and know that thats it? I just cannot connect the words to the state of my body that represents my frame.
Thanks you anyways.
I think the gist of it is, that I need a lot more practice and for now I try to live with the idea, that my frame will magically appears one day and I will know what it is the moment I feel it. This is in no way meant sarcastically and I hope None of you are offended. I just dont know what else do. If I cannot put your advice into proper exercises to find my frame, I just have to wait for it to happen.
I've often found that where something shows up as a problem in my dancing is caused by something else, usually earlier.
Being too far from the leader might not be a problem with the frame. If the leader is moving away from you, you should follow them. Don't get too far away. But I usually see the problem on the rock step -- a big rock step pulls you away from your partner.
When doing the rock step, keep your feet under your hips. Actually, the rule* is ALWAYS keep your feet under your hips.
*When you get more advanced, you will learn how and when to break the rules.
Actually, reviewing the whole thread, maybe we should discuss compression and stretch.
Compression and stretch are fundamental parts of the frame. Any parts of the body that are in contact should be in one or the other. Compression is a pressure against the other partner's body. Stretch is a pulling away from the other partner.
The pressure doesn't have to be much. Taking the Standard ballroom hold (see the Scatter Chasses thread for examples.) the leader's right hand is on the follower's back. There is enough compression between the hand and the back that a piece of paper wouldn't move through the whole dance. But it's not a lot of pressure -- I don't think a raw egg would necessarily break. (Don't try this at home or on the dance floor, it can get messy.) OK, some dancers do use that much pressure, but the idea is that you're not fighting with a lot of pressure. The connected hands are also in compression.
Stretch is about the same amount of pressure.
Any connection between the partners should be in either compression or stretch throughout the dance. The leader determines which is used at the time.
In an open, two hand hold, if the leader is pushing, push back, if he is pulling away, pull away. Gently. Teacher wants her hand to feel the compression or stretch in her hand from my upper arm or shoulder. I admit, that's kind of hard to visualize, but that's what she wants.
Compression and stretch are fundamental parts of the frame. Any parts of the body that are in contact should be in one or the other. Compression is a pressure against the other partner's body. Stretch is a pulling away from the other partner.
The pressure doesn't have to be much. Taking the Standard ballroom hold (see the Scatter Chasses thread for examples.) the leader's right hand is on the follower's back. There is enough compression between the hand and the back that a piece of paper wouldn't move through the whole dance. But it's not a lot of pressure -- I don't think a raw egg would necessarily break. (Don't try this at home or on the dance floor, it can get messy.) OK, some dancers do use that much pressure, but the idea is that you're not fighting with a lot of pressure. The connected hands are also in compression.
Stretch is about the same amount of pressure.
Any connection between the partners should be in either compression or stretch throughout the dance. The leader determines which is used at the time.
In an open, two hand hold, if the leader is pushing, push back, if he is pulling away, pull away. Gently. Teacher wants her hand to feel the compression or stretch in her hand from my upper arm or shoulder. I admit, that's kind of hard to visualize, but that's what she wants.
riegera2412
Member
I know. Problem is, I do a lot of beginner mistakes and don't know where to start, because they are all intertwined.
Makes sense, but what if he does a send out? As I follow I should triple back on the second triple step. Yeah maybe I should triple in place when I realize I am too far away already, so I don't get further away and even overstretch the connection when I rock step. The challenge is, that there is a lot to focus on and I am mentally not capable to pay attention to all of this. Especially the steps are kind of a reflex, I just do them regardless of position.
You are correct and I hear it a lot. Don't do big steps, keep them under your body. This makes a lot of sense, but how do I do that? I have been practicing to get my steps smaller for practically the entire time I do Lindy now. Most of the exercises are step drills (rock, regular and triple steps) paying attention to small steps. Since that didn't help, I started traping myself between chairs so there is a limit to how far I can go. But still, I am not able to do small steps when I don't focus on them exclusively.
I doubt this will be any time soon. But I only do Lindy for about half a year now, so I guess there is still time.
Also, thank you again @Greybeard for your advice.
riegera2412
Member
I get that and have heard in multiple times. But apparently, I am not aware of it when I am dancing ith a partner but focussed on other things like doing the steps and anticipating what will come next since I don't feel it in the connection, which is caused by the complete lack of frame. I really don't get how other beginners that started even later than me, can get it so quickly. It seems my mind is entirely disconnencted from my body.
I just imagine now bringing raw eggs to the dance. The others and especially my teachers would certainly think I am crazy. Nonetheless, I get what you are saying. More practice with a partner focussing on frame, compression and pressure might be helpful. Up to now, I practice alone at home since I don't have a partner to practice with. Usually I try to use the furniture I have at home to practice connection, but obviously this is not optimal, since they don't move with me or react the way a dance partner would.
Stretch is about the same amount of pressure.
OK, so for example if my partner and I are in closed and the lead (be it me or the partner) is providing their left hand, I should pull a little on it by tensing my arm/shoulder (???) to create a stretch?
That makes no sense to me tbh. If he is pushing back I take it as a sign to reverse direction and not push back. And also how does he pull away? This may be a question of the frame of reference or my English is not being good enough. Pulling is the opposite of pushing. So, if he pulls on me (the connection) I take that as a signal to move closer not also pull on the connection trying to move the partner closer to me. I cannot wrap my head around this. Am I just speaking another language when dancing? Nobody ever told me to get closer when pushing and further away when pulling. That makes no sense, sorry. This is totally opposite to what I would do out of reflex and it would mean I have to start all over again trying to forget everthing I learned and somehow make it the opposite. Maybe I am really not a dancer.
One of the goals as a follow in Lindy is to try to keep a certain amount of pressure in your hands (say 5-15 lbs).
If a leader pushes within that range, let them push (don't withdraw from it, lean into it). If they push beyond that range, it's a sign that they want to move to a pull connection, and you should withdraw until you can establish a pull of 5-15 lbs.
Same the other way around. If they're pulling with a small amount of force, let them pull, lean away from it. If they exceed the comfortable amount of force, then move forward.
There's more nuance to it than that ("lean" is not really accurate, for example), but at a very crude level that's how I think about it.
riegera2412
Member
That is a really valuable information @David_In_CA . But this seems like a lot of experience is required to get to that level.
This is a bit contrary to what I have heard so far. Am I not supposed to keep my arms and hands relaxed only "slightly" connecting to the leads hands? I was told not to grab the leads hand and hang on to it. Only slightly connect so it is easier to let go in case of a turn for example. Maybe I took it to literal then.
Also, I think this is very dependent on the dance partners, meaning the force limit for the switch between resisting the motion and going with it. I don't have a newton meter attached to my arm and neither have other dancers. Finding the right amount of force for each dancer must require a lo of experience dancing with them.
Again, thanks David. This helps a lot, I think. No idea how I will figure out how to get that force right.
This is a bit contrary to what I have heard so far. Am I not supposed to keep my arms and hands relaxed only "slightly" connecting to the leads hands? I was told not to grab the leads hand and hang on to it. Only slightly connect so it is easier to let go in case of a turn for example. Maybe I took it to literal then.
Also, I think this is very dependent on the dance partners, meaning the force limit for the switch between resisting the motion and going with it. I don't have a newton meter attached to my arm and neither have other dancers. Finding the right amount of force for each dancer must require a lo of experience dancing with them.
Again, thanks David. This helps a lot, I think. No idea how I will figure out how to get that force right.
David explained it better than I did.
I was in a west coast swing class a few years ago where I was told not to rest my thumb on the back of my partner's hand. That was considered holding it. It's probably best to rest your thumb on the side of your index finger.
A more advanced hold for East Coast Swing only works if both partners are trained in it. The leader holds his* left hand with the index finger pointing towards his partner and the other three fingers pointing to his right. Then the follower cups her hand over his. When they are in compression his fingers press against her palm and when they are in stretch his fingers are pulling against hers. In compression, there is no contact between her fingers and his palm and in stretch his fingers are not touching her palm.
*Yeah, I know. Stereotype.
Grabbing and hanging on to your partner's hand is a no-no. Either as leader or follower. When a follower is lead in an underarm turn or into a hammerlock, a solid grip can cause shoulder injuries. Not something conducive to good dancing. It is also more graceful if one partner (and it can be the leader) has to pull their hand from the partner's.
I was in a west coast swing class a few years ago where I was told not to rest my thumb on the back of my partner's hand. That was considered holding it. It's probably best to rest your thumb on the side of your index finger.
A more advanced hold for East Coast Swing only works if both partners are trained in it. The leader holds his* left hand with the index finger pointing towards his partner and the other three fingers pointing to his right. Then the follower cups her hand over his. When they are in compression his fingers press against her palm and when they are in stretch his fingers are pulling against hers. In compression, there is no contact between her fingers and his palm and in stretch his fingers are not touching her palm.
The above discussion is mostly about the consistent connection. When the leader wants to signal more than the basic a bigger movement will be made. If you're in steady state compression, the follower will be able to feel the lead into something else easier.
*Yeah, I know. Stereotype.