Finding and keeping frame

[riegera2412]

I would advise you to keep this in mind:

If both dancers pay attention to moving their spines and keeping their feet under themselves, it is impossible for one person to step on the other's foot.

Stepping on feet can only happen when dancers push their feet out ahead of themselves. Which is an easy thing to do, because we can get very focused on "stepping correctly," and putting our feet in specific places, but it is ultimately a mistake and mechanically unnecessary.

But you can only control yourself. So what can you do? You focus on the fact that your spine is the thing that moves across the floor, and your feet merely land under you to catch your weight. Just like you do when you're walking somewhere normally and not thinking about it. It turns out that if one person is moving their spine well, the other person will pick up on that and start moving themselves better, too. Because they'll get bulldozed otherwise!

Ok, so overcoming it would mean to have good frame and do small steps. Great, if you find some meds that help me keep frame and do small steps please give me the name and I ask my doctor for a prescription. Because frame and small steps are my arch nemesis it seems. Even after half a year of dance classes and constant practice at home I still cannot do them.

 

[Bailango]

tbh, I do not get at all, where you are going with the shopping cart analogy.

You didn’t answer the question.

 

[riegera2412]

Yes, that has always been my problem and it still is. I find logic very comforting because it usually leads to a optimal or suboptimal solution. With dancing this doesnt work at all. Allthough I get most of the stuff in theory, I just cannot do it practically.

Take the beginner class from yesterday. It was a disaster and we just practiced send out/send in for the third week and I am still to stupid. After came the pass by which I also cannot do properly because as a lead I cannot turn without doing a quadruple step (made that up) as soon as I have a follow with me. But that is another story and doesnt belong here. I thought I was bad as a follow, but learning to lead now is an even bigger disaster.

tbh, I do not get at all, where you are going with the shopping cart analogy.

I rarely use shopping carts, but if I use them, I can push them either empty or filled with groceries. The cart won't be full though. I live alone and usually don't need and buy a lot of stuff. Also, I cannot say if I push them the same way other people do, because I never observe others pushing their carts through the store and certainly don't oberserve myself while pushing a cart.

 

[fiesta0618]

Ok, so overcoming it would mean to have good frame and do small steps.

No, this has nothing to do with it.

If you keep your feet under you, you will not step on people even if your steps are big and you have no frame at all. You will bump into them with your body instead.

 

[riegera2412]

No, this has nothing to do with it.

If you keep your feet under you, you will not step on people even if your steps are big and you have no frame at all. You will bump into them with your body instead.

I guess I get it then. And it is about frame too I think. Keeping your feet under the torso is a Part of frame for me. Maybe I have that wrong, but I Like to see it that way.

 

[riegera2412]

A little off topic, can someone be too stupid to lead?

For context, I take a lead beginner class right now and have the steps fine when I do them solo, but as soon as I dance/practice with a follow everything is a disaster. After 3 or 4 weeks of trying the send out/in I still cannot so it. Not to talk about pass bys. For some reason I always do a "quadruple" step for the first triple step regardless of the variation (lead/follow underarm turn, both turn with/without hands connected). This obviously lets me rock step with the right foot when going into the next six count. It is throwing me off so much, that I had to stop the class yesterday because I am really frustrated.

 

[Bailango]

I rarely use shopping carts, but if I use them, I can push them either empty or filled with groceries. The cart won't be full though. I live alone and usually don't need and buy a lot of stuff. Also, I cannot say if I push them the same way other people do, because I never observe others pushing their carts through the store and certainly don't oberserve myself while pushing a cart.

You are pushing shopping cart using your frame (and core). That is why your feet don’t keep hiting the cart. The feet are under you. You are also not using your arms, otherwise you would be in awkward position bending over to adjust as cart keeps running away from you. Whether cart is empty or not, you push its weight the same way. It is an example of you keeping and using your frame unconsciously.

 

[Zhena]

A little off topic, can someone be too stupid to lead?

For context, I take a lead beginner class right now and have the steps fine when I do them solo, but as soon as I dance/practice with a follow everything is a disaster. After 3 or 4 weeks of trying the send out/in I still cannot so it. Not to talk about pass bys. For some reason I always do a "quadruple" step for the first triple step regardless of the variation (lead/follow underarm turn, both turn with/without hands connected). This obviously lets me rock step with the right foot when going into the next six count. It is throwing me off so much, that I had to stop the class yesterday because I am really frustrated.

Not too stupid, just trying to manage too many aspects at once. I'm also inclined to be overly technical when I'm learning, and I find I rely on mental reminders of core concepts that don't change much. One of these concepts is that in Lindy Hop (or WCS) the leader's first step of a pattern is on the left foot, the follower starts stepping on the right foot, and the basic structure is step, step, triple step, triple step. Thus when I first learned WCS as a follower, I knew I should be prepared to step on my right foot at the start of a new pattern. This was drilled into me so thoroughly that if I somehow ended up on the wrong foot I would automatically correct, perhaps by taking a "quadruple" instead of a triple. Then I started learning to lead, and my feet had to be in the opposite position at the beginning of a pattern. Now my brain has to track whether I'm following or leading when it decides (in the background) which foot I should be on.

If I recall correctly, you started learning to follow, then switched to leading while you were still struggling with basic concepts. Your quadruple step may be because your brain is trying to keep you on the correct foot but the correct foot is different than when you first learned. I suggest you practice at home, dancing the basic "step step triple triple" pattern to music, placing your feet wherever they want to go and concentrating on being on the correct foot for the role you are going to be dancing at the next class. Dancing to one song every day with conscious attention to the correct foot should help you a lot.

Being able to rely on your brain operating in the background will help a lot. It seems that its starting to work. Don't give up.

 

[riegera2412]

You are pushing shopping cart using your frame (and core). That is why your feet don’t keep hiting the cart. The feet are under you. You are also not using your arms, otherwise you would be in awkward position bending over to adjust as cart keeps running away from you. Whether cart is empty or not, you push its weight the same way. It is an example of you keeping and using your frame unconsciously.

That is a really great analogy, thank you. Definitely trying that in the beginner class as a lead. Obviously not going to tell the follows I think about them as shopping carts from now on.

Not sure though how to translate this to me being a follow. Shopping carts rarely move me around through a store. Would be funny though.

That is really a great analogy. Never thought about it and wonder now If I can use that feeling for dancing.

 

[Greybeard]

Not sure though how to translate this to me being a follow. Shopping carts rarely move me around through a store.

You want the same amount of muscle tone when following as when leading.

 

[David_In_CA]

This is just a thought -- you seem to be having a lot of frustrations with learning. You might find it easier if you stick with one role until you feel more comfortable with it.

Obviously if you are enjoying doing both you should continue doing that, but if you are feeling stressed and confused about doing both, consider waiting to pick up the other side.

 

[riegera2412]

You want the same amount of muscle tone when following as when leading.

Hey there, thanks for your reply and sorry for my late answer.

Actually still keeping in mind the shopping cart analogy and trying to use it in my social dancing. However, I really find it hard to be consistent. When I social dance I am so much in my head about what steps to do and "signals to send" that my frame drops soon after the first seconds of the song. And it does not matter if I am following or leading.

As a lead now I am more or less comfortable with the figures we learned, but cannot really lead them in a social dance. Last week at the social I tried leading one of my favorite dance partners in a Lindy circle and while she thought the execution on my part was quite good I totally forgot to send her any signal what I had in my mind. This happens a lot when I dance as a lead. Seems I am just to occupied with myself to also lead someone. But she doesn't care about all of my mistakes since we still have a lot of fun and since she is about half a year ahead of me and also does other dances she helps me a lot and has great advice that usually helps to get better.

 

[riegera2412]

This is just a thought -- you seem to be having a lot of frustrations with learning. You might find it easier if you stick with one role until you feel more comfortable with it.

Obviously if you are enjoying doing both you should continue doing that, but if you are feeling stressed and confused about doing both, consider waiting to pick up the other side.

The frustration is there for sure, but has not a lot to do with me learning to lead and follow at the same time. It is more my personality and the fact, that I am not very patient with myself when it comes to learning new stuff. Especially when I see others do it so much faster than me.

I am neither stressed nor confused mostly just frustrated when I cannot do something after trying 1000 times. Just like the circle I was trying to lead as described in my previous reply. It needs much more practice to be able to lead. Following works out most of the time even though I am still anticipating a lot which cause me to ruin the leads of my dance partners quite often, since I don't understand the leads correctly. Still, I have fun I think. But leading is so much harder since my head need to keep up with the my execution of the dance move, sending the correct signals to the follow and also what to do next. Nobody wants to dance with a lead who can only do an 8-count basic for the entire song without any errors.

Also, thanks for your advice. I will continue with both. Since the lead class is done and there is only an "advanced class" I attend it as a follow to keep up and during social dances after the class I try to improve my leading.

 

[Greybeard]

Hey there, thanks for your reply and sorry for my late answer.

Actually still keeping in mind the shopping cart analogy and trying to use it in my social dancing. However, I really find it hard to be consistent. When I social dance I am so much in my head about what steps to do and "signals to send" that my frame drops soon after the first seconds of the song. And it does not matter if I am following or leading.

As a lead now I am more or less comfortable with the figures we learned, but cannot really lead them in a social dance. Last week at the social I tried leading one of my favorite dance partners in a Lindy circle and while she thought the execution on my part was quite good I totally forgot to send her any signal what I had in my mind. This happens a lot when I dance as a lead. Seems I am just to occupied with myself to also lead someone. But she doesn't care about all of my mistakes since we still have a lot of fun and since she is about half a year ahead of me and also does other dances she helps me a lot and has great advice that usually helps to get better.

Since you have a friend you're comfortable with, maybe the two of you can work together to improve your frame. Set aside one or maybe two dances where you concentrate on just keeping the frame and the rhythm. Don't do all the fancy tricks. All right, maybe lead one of the simple patterns. Then. hopefully, the frame will carry over a bit to the other dances.

I can say this because I'm not a professional teacher. When I start concentrating on one thing and lose something else, Teacher gets on me and won't let me drop anything.

Nobody wants to dance with a lead who can only do an 8-count basic for the entire song without any errors.

That might be true, but I have several times been told that my followers care more that the figures are led well than how many are led.

In one class I took the instructors said to choose three figures to dance all night, and just do them over and over again. I admit I have trouble with this -- some of my followers are not ready for my fancier moves and I have to drop down a step (or three) to keep them from being frustrated.

 

[David_In_CA]

When I social dance I am so much in my head about what steps to do and "signals to send" that my frame drops soon after the first seconds of the song. And it does not matter if I am following or leading.

The not-so-secret secret of leading swing dances is that it doesn't really matter much what steps you do for a pattern.

Think of it like two masses (you and your partner) connected by a spring (you and your partner's frames).

The only thing that really matters is what is going on in that spring. You manage that with how you are positioning your body in relation to the follower. That creates a stretch or compression at some angle in the spring. That tells your partner what you are asking for.

The steps are just to let you move your body in space. You are moving your body just to manage the spring and to make sure that you are not physically in the way of where you want the follower to go.

Put your body where it needs to go to manage the spring. Let your feet keep you upright, but don't worry about the steps too much. They're really the least important part.