For Leads: Do you watch how a follower dances before inviting her?

[JournalInTime]

Many think so, I do not. If you consciously want to dance apilado hold and cling and hang onto your partner, actually this is not style, its simply inability. Lean is illusion.

Lean is an illusion, but apilado is not . . . they aren't the same thing. You can share weight without leaning or bending the spine, via a horizontal vector through the torsos, mostly the lower torsos in the belly area. This requires some knee, hip, and ankle flexibility, and a lower embrace, but it works just fine. The little people in your profile picture are doing it: vertical from the hips up, lower body positioned to direct weight horizontally. Though the people in the image are taking it to an extreme.

 

[JournalInTime]

There are many followers who will do things like hang their weight off my left hand, push hard against it, use it to balance themselves, extending it too far like in ballroom tango, and or move their hand excessively.

Hanging off of my left hand and extending the arm on the open side are the worst. I don't mind some push . . . that's how I know where my follower's feet are, especially the left foot (due to upper body vs. lower body diagonality thanks largely to the sartorius muscle). I find limp, no-push partners feel absent and not fun to dance with. But slamming my left arm back, yeah, that's bad.

So in the best case scenario it feels like dancing with a stone wall, in the worst with a creative washing machine.

Some followers do the stone wall thing, too. It most commonly goes with the leg-flicking, stork-walking, perpetual pasada type of follower who needs to decorate across multiple measures, and so who roots themselves in place and refuses to budge when the music – and the other dancers – are saying, "It's time to mooove!!!" As my coach likes to say, until a follower can decorate on the move without the leader even noticing, they should be decorating only at the práctica.

 

[Brummbaer]

Yes, I am referring to the dance posture and particularly to the own axis.

It depends. If they're a novice, then it probably won't bother me; if skilled, it depends whether they're adopting some recognisable AT style, or adaptable, or just bad (incompatible?). If you've tried it once and didn't enjoy it, you wouldn't go back.

 

[Brummbaer]

Some followers do the stone wall thing, too. It most commonly goes with the leg-flicking, stork-walking, perpetual pasada type of follower who needs to decorate across multiple measures, and so who roots themselves in place and refuses to budge when the music – and the other dancers – are saying, "It's time to mooove!!!"

Yeah, I know one like that. A former ballet dancer. She usually dances like that with her partner, and causes problems in the ronda with multiple, slow, decorations (you could go off for a coffee). When her partner dances with anyone else, it's different and pretty good. I've generally avoided asking her, but recently saw her dancing with someone else for a tanda. Completely different

 

[JournalInTime]

Yeah, I know one like that. A former ballet dancer. She usually dances like that with her partner, and causes problems in the ronda with multiple, slow, decorations (you could go off for a coffee). When her partner dances with anyone else, it's different and pretty good. I've generally avoided asking her, but recently saw her dancing with someone else for a tanda. Completely different

We have far too many!

I really do get that as a leader, it's my job to let followers express themselves. I'm on and on and on about that all the time here, what with my blathering about equal partners and such . . . It's just that I think follower creativity can be expressed via active propositions rather than reactions, and thus be kinetic or even dynamic rather than static.

When I see a couple holding up the ronda while the follower steps back and forth over a foot, caresses the leader's shin, and flicks their leg every which way in unled boleo-like movements, I automatically assume:

1. This leader leaves no room in the dance for their follower. Their follower is desperately unleashing all their creativity and expression in one of the few openings they've been given. That's usually the result of a macho leader who thinks "a man should take charge."

2. This follower leaves no room in the dance for their leader. They see the leader as a pole or barre to use in their show. That's usually the result of a diva follower who thinks "it's the leader's job to show off the follower."

Both are terrible. I try not to be #1, and I try not to dance with #2. The problem is that I attract quite a bit of #2 because the two partners I dance with most often can decorate on the move, doing things like little crosses or tripling as they step, even stealing ganchos from me as I walk. People assume I'm open to fancy decorations all the time without paying attention to the "on the move" part. I strive to move at the speed of the floor, and if that's fast, the decorations have to be takeaway, not eat-in.

 

[Rabbit]

It depends. If they're a novice, then it probably won't bother me; if skilled, it depends whether they're adopting some recognisable AT style, or adaptable, or just bad (incompatible?). If you've tried it once and didn't enjoy it, you wouldn't go back.

Oh yeah, I think novices should get a free pass for a while.

Also, anything that one doesn't like is considerably worse when experienced dancers do it - because the signal to noise ratio is higher, but that's a bad thing when the signal is unpleasant!

 

[itwillhappen]

For me, the axis is the main element in one's posture, the position of the elbows or the rigidity being others for example.

Rigidity is, among other things, a negative side effect of trying to achieve a stretched posture. You have to refine and balance that over time to become a pleasant dancer.

 

[JournalInTime]

Rigidity is, among other things, a negative side effect of trying to achieve a stretched posture. You have to refine and balance that over time to become a pleasant dancer.

I think tango dancers worry way too much about being tall and stretched because they think it gives them better "lines"!

I was taught to dance with soft, slightly bent knees and a lightly "seated" carriage (weight settled over the supporting leg so that the free leg is genuinely free, whether for decorations or for precise foot placement), and to take long steps within reason. This offers a lot of shock-absorption and loads of space for your partner to play with patadas, sacadas, ganchos, and such. It also means that – if you want to avoid having your head bob up and down – you'll be dancing much lower. It looks less stiff and allows a more playful dance.

But I realize that some people are very taken with tall dancers who take stiff strides. I guess it's a stylistic choice. I get nice "lines" by wearing baggy tango trousers, which totally hide the details of my lower-body articulation and make all steps look long and smooth. It's cheating, pure and simple. But then, every last male teacher I've had "cheats" this way.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I might have missed this somewhere in the thread, but how important is the posture for you guys when watching someone dancing (leader or follower) in order to asses if you would like to dance with a particular person? Would you make a compromise between maybe not the best posture but a relaxed upper body(ie shoulders)/way of dancing?

Well, with respect to followers, it's important. Mostly, I like to see how they connect with their partner--embrace, arm position, etc. Related to this, inexperienced followers tend to let themselves fall backward rather then keeping their torso connected and extending their free leg. I guess you could consider that part of posture.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

1. I dislike having my head pushed even slightly off axis. It is bad for posture and neck health, and causes bad precession in fast turns.

Your head is your business for the most part. One can dance cheek-to-cheek or very close to it without your head getting pushed off axis. Simply rotate your head to the left a bit and you'll be fine. I don't see what the problem is; with a good partner you can dance quite closely.

 

[JournalInTime]

Related to this, inexperienced followers tend to let themselves fall backward

That's a bad habit I've never understood but often seen. You're dancing with someone. Why would you tilt away from them? It removes just about all the information necessary to dance as a couple.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I think tango dancers worry way too much about being tall and stretched because they think it gives them better "lines"!

That comes mostly from watching performance videos.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

That's a bad habit I've never understood but often seen. You're dancing with someone. Why would you tilt away from them? It removes just about all the information necessary to dance as a couple.

Because it takes time, sometimes a long time, for someone who has never danced tango to trust an unknown partner (or any partner) and also figure out where she's supposed to step. And doing so simply propels you backward more, leading you to lose balance. Takes a while to overcome that. The close contact can be confusing at first, and a little intimidating.

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

That's a bad habit I've never understood but often seen. You're dancing with someone. Why would you tilt away from them? It removes just about all the information necessary to dance as a couple.

Maybe due to a formal ballroom background. Totally different styles, I know, but muscle memory is muscle memory. And in ballroom, much of the information being exchanged between partners is through connection points like the ribcage, hips, thighs, and hands.

 

[opendoor]

...inexperienced followers tend to let themselves fall backward rather then..

Interestingly, I have never seen such behavior or experienced it myself. Interesting because many dancers switch to tango after their ballroom career. But this clientele can switch between the styles very well.
I tend to suffer from the opposite behavior, leaning and heavy hanging.