For Leads: Do you watch how a follower dances before inviting her?

[Mr. Moustachio]

face-to-face contact is a gaffe. It's distracting,

Lots of couples dance that way and they seem fine.

blinding,

If you do lots of turns, you'll know what's going on around you.

and gets sweaty.

Some of us (me) don't sweat much.

Also, it tends to lead to face-on-face pressure, which is harmful to your neck

I had this happen to me in the late '90s. Not since. If it hurts my head, it's going to hurt hers too.

and screws up your dance posture.

I had bad posture long before I started dancing close embrace. Face-to-face contact had no effect on that front.

I was taught never, but never, to initiate or tolerate it.

Dancing cheek-to-cheek feels real nice. What's the big deal? You're already dancing boob-to-chest. Try cheek-to-cheek for a song.

I was taught to look in the direction of my turn (which is good for floorcraft, if nothing else).

It's hard to move your head when you've got face-to-face contact, but you can still move your eyes. So, turn your eyes left when you turn left. And, if you can see over your partner's head, turn your eyes right when you turn right.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

As long as it is fluid and is breathing with the rest of the movement, its likely good

Good point. It's also good to have some energy in that hand (which doesn't mean squeezing the life out of your partner's hand). That hand is part of the embrace so it should be as alive as the rest of the embrace.

 

[Tangogal]

I think if someone tells you that you’re hurting them or that the way you’re holding them is uncomfortable then you should believe them. Change your handhold or embrace or head position don’t seek second opinions.

 

[opendoor]

Meh, face-to-face contact is a gaffe... and gets sweaty..

I don't know what you mean. In milonguero, I dance right to right temple, in salón I dance right to left temple. Only nuevo and neo is face-to-face?

 

[itwillhappen]

Sometimes I feel sorry for the poor men who are so tense with the competing demands of leading, technique and musicality that they apply too much pressure with their hands or heads.
But then I say to myself: hey, not necessary, they do it voluntarily.

 

[Brummbaer]

I think if someone tells you that you’re hurting them or that the way you’re holding them is uncomfortable then you should believe them. Change your handhold or embrace or head position don’t seek second opinions.

I'd like to give that more upvotes. It's not about some myth of authenticity or style; it's a social dance for 2 people. Sure, you try for some comfortable optimum, like allowing your partner to adjust the embrace to suit. I've had followers with shoulder problems who can't lift their arm, and hand/wrist issues, including a professional dancer who had finger problems through leaders gripping too tightly (not AT).

 

[Tangogal]

I'd like to give that more upvotes. It's not about some myth of authenticity or style; it's a social dance for 2 people. Sure, you try for some comfortable optimum, like allowing your partner to adjust the embrace to suit. I've had followers with shoulder problems who can't lift their arm, and hand/wrist issues, including a professional dancer who had finger problems through leaders gripping too tightly (not AT).

When I was a kid I had a back tooth filled. It was agony when the dentist blew air on it. He kept saying it was only air and couldn’t hurt. Eventually gave me extra shots to numb my face. Guess who has an additional nerve in her gums?

 

[Brummbaer]

Some of those I'd agree with, but not most of them

Some of us (me) don't sweat much.

You are Prince Andrew? Or ladies get warm, gentleman perspire, horses sweat. I'm sometimes with the horses.

I had bad posture long before I started dancing close embrace. Face-to-face contact had no effect on that front.

Poor posture tends to mean your head drops forward, so your head isn't above your ideal pivot point which causes precession as you pivot. I suppose it depends partially on the style. Are you just leading to show off the follower?

Dancing cheek-to-cheek feels real nice. What's the big deal? You're already dancing boob-to-chest. Try cheek-to-cheek for a song.

Well, maybe with my SO before she hits me, but it's not a good look.

It's hard to move your head when you've got face-to-face contact, but you can still move your eyes. So, turn your eyes left when you turn left.

So you sort of dissociate your head from your upper body and lower body? Makes it difficult to get that corkscrew-like spiral. I'd agree you don't need to move the head much. It feels more like moving the shoulders and your partner should be moving as a consequence, but you tend to get your head and upper body round to where you want to end up. Sure, you can do most steps in close hold, but it's not necessarily optimum.

And, if you can see over your partner's head...

How short are the followers in your locale?

 

[JournalInTime]

I don't know what you mean. In milonguero, I dance right to right temple, in salón I dance right to left temple. Only nuevo and neo is face-to-face?

I meant cheek touching cheek . . . cheeks are part of the face. If our right cheeks are touching, that's face-to-face contact. I didn't mean "face on," which I think is how you read it.

 

[JournalInTime]

If you do lots of turns, you'll know what's going on around you.

I turn rather more than average when space allows. Space doesn't always allow, though. One thing far too many leaders forget is that followers are three-dimensional. If you lead them in a turn, they have to go somewhere . . . and it's easier to judge whether there's space if you can see said space, which can be tricky for turns to the right if someone's head is there.

Some of us (me) don't sweat much.

I run very, very hot. Two to three shirts per milonga even with breaks, water, and antiperspirant.

Dancing cheek-to-cheek feels real nice. What's the big deal? You're already dancing boob-to-chest. Try cheek-to-cheek for a song.

It's really not about issues with body contact. I just like to see where I'm turning.

It's hard to move your head when you've got face-to-face contact, but you can still move your eyes. So, turn your eyes left when you turn left. And, if you can see over your partner's head, turn your eyes right when you turn right.

My eyes can't deflect more than the typical 60° of most humans. Whereas as part of my turning, I often use rapid 180° enrosques, alteraciones, etc., not to mention circular colgaditas. My partner is a very fast stepper, for which I'm thankful. So, to put her in the spot which is currently behind my head, I need to know there's space for her there . . . If someone is there, I can react quickly enough if they're at the edge of the field of vision that using my neck and eyes affords me, but not if I wait until my eyes alone pick them up.

Anyway, this sounds stylistic. I'm not a fan of the romantic, slow, walk-and-rock style of tango. I prefer to dance very dynamically, using rapid direction changes and sharp pivots to express the music. That's hotter (more movement) and demands more visual scanning. It's just my preference. I've tried dancing other ways. I find it boring.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Well, maybe with my SO before she hits me, but it's not a good look.

This I do not understand at all. Good look for whom?

 

[Brummbaer]

This I do not understand at all. Good look for whom?

From an observer's perspective. Although subjective, it reflects on the dancers.

I realise it's an old style, maybe even a movie stereotype, but there are reasons it's not common.

 

[ardix]

I might have missed this somewhere in the thread, but how important is the posture for you guys when watching someone dancing (leader or follower) in order to asses if you would like to dance with a particular person? Would you make a compromise between maybe not the best posture but a relaxed upper body(ie shoulders)/way of dancing?

 

[itwillhappen]

Meh, face-to-face contact is a gaffe. It's distracting, blinding, and gets sweaty. Also, it tends to lead to face-on-face pressure, which is harmful to your neck and screws up your dance posture. I was taught never, but never, to initiate or tolerate it.

With the argument one can also keep a few centimeters distance in the chest area or touch one another with the fingertips. In the end it's all a matter of personal preference and cultural background.

 

[JournalInTime]

With the argument one can also keep a few centimeters distance in the chest area or touch one another with the fingertips. In the end it's all a matter of personal preference and cultural background.

As I said in my other response, it has nothing to do with culture or values! I dance very, very close and have no problem with contact. It's specifically technical:

1. I dislike having my head pushed even slightly off axis. It is bad for posture and neck health, and causes bad precession in fast turns.

2. I turn often, quickly, and steeply enough that I like to see what's going on behind me in a way where eye movement alone isn't good enough but eye-plus-neck movement is. That's possible only with significant head clearance.

I also dislike hair in the eyes and sweat on the face, but those things aren't cultural, either. I have terrible eyes and need to dance with glasses to avoid catastrophe, so it's dangerous to have hair tangled in my glasses (blinding). I also pay above-average attention to my senses other than sight, so things touching my face are inordinately distracting.

Below the neck, my partner can clamp on to me like an octopus, for all I care.