Forward voleo: man's pivot or no?

[All Sales Are Final]

Hey folks,

There seem to exist in my community (among the more experienced dancers) two views on the proper execution of a forward voleo (to the woman’s right, with her left leg):

(a) The man sidesteps to his left, the woman sidesteps to her right with him; then the man pivots counterclockwise as the woman’s leg traces an arc on the floor; as her leg returns to the starting position, he steps to his right around her in a quarter-circle.

(b) The same as (a) above, but without the man’s counterclockwise pivot accompanying the arc.

Which is more correct?

Thank you!

 

[Steve Pastor]

I'm thinking there has to be an slight movement away from your partner to insure that her leg/foot moves in front of her center.

the woman’s leg traces an arc on the floor

"voleo" or "volcada" ?
sounds like the volcada

In that case, moving away from your partner is a necessity.

In this case, it would be "natural" for her foot to fall under her center.

Any movement in the direction her foot is "falling," such a pivoting, would add momentum and increase how far it moves, and be indication that you want that foot to go that way.

 

[Mladenac]

Hey folks,

There seem to exist in my community (among the more experienced dancers) two views on the proper execution of a forward voleo (to the woman’s right, with her left leg):

(a) The man sidesteps to his left, the woman sidesteps to her right with him; then the man pivots counterclockwise as the woman’s leg traces an arc on the floor; as her leg returns to the starting position, he steps to his right around her in a quarter-circle.

(b) The same as (a) above, but without the man’s counterclockwise pivot accompanying the arc.

Which is more correct?

Thank you!

a) is correct

Everything needs to be lead.
Without contra step she would do that alone, which is big no no

 

[rain_dog]

Hey folks,

There seem to exist in my community (among the more experienced dancers) two views on the proper execution of a forward voleo (to the woman’s right, with her left leg):

(a) The man sidesteps to his left, the woman sidesteps to her right with him; then the man pivots counterclockwise as the woman’s leg traces an arc on the floor; as her leg returns to the starting position, he steps to his right around her in a quarter-circle.

(b) The same as (a) above, but without the man’s counterclockwise pivot accompanying the arc.

Which is more correct?

Thank you!

If you want the woman's leg to trace an arc, you'll have to lead it, which means you'll need the counterclockwise pivot. It isn't strictly necessary for the front boleo however, so I don't think b) is entirely wrong - you just won't get a sweeping arc before the boleo.

"voleo" or "volcada" ?

I think he means voleo (or boleo - I've heard it both ways). See for example,

 

[Mladenac]

This video shows that he does not do counter movement and she is moving her leg as he did.
There were not sufficient dynamics to cause her leg go up.
So it's obvious that she pulled her leg up.

This will work only in a community dancing when everybody had the same instructor.
But it won't work with random follower in international event because it wasn't led.

 

[UKDancer]

I can see no reason for the man to need to pivot, at all. The lead comes from a rotation of the torso, and the action can convey far more energy and for less effort if he has divided weight between both feet, rather than to be turning his own base.

 

[Gssh]

I think there are at least 2 different kinds of voleos, one that is a embellishment (the type b above), the other is a play with the geometry (the type a above). (i am consciously avoiding talking about "lead" vs. "un-lead" here - the embellishment is lead, too, but the shape is create purely by the followers work, and not by collaboration between the partners). Most boleos (fall somewhere in on that spectrum - even the most forceful leader can not create a boleo if the follower is not letting it happen, and even the most relaxed follower will add some direction and control to an impulse based boleo).

As Mladenac points out an embellishment type boleo will not work if the follower does not "know how to do it", but similarly a lot of followers that have not experienced a geometry based boleo will tense up and stop one from happening (and be wrenched uncomfortably) - so leading it that way is not a guaranteed to work with a follower you don't know either.

My approach to moves is very much inspired by one of my therapy profs - his mantra was "all behavior is functional". I similarly believe that all cool tango moves are there to show off ones skills - the question is figuring out what skill we want to use for something

so i would say: both a) and b) are "correct".

a) is a geometry based boleo (if i understand the description - similarly to UKD i would probably not pivot myself if i lead this, i would use dissociation+embrace to pivot the follower which makes it easier to reverse (forward boleos are a bit tricky because of the way the knee works - in some ways they are actually more like backward boleos after getting the free leg on the outside of the standing leg than anything else, which makes the timing and geometry a bit trickier). The leader needs to provide the impulse and the "whip" (by pivoting/using the embrace/stepping), while at the same time maintaining the followers balance on the standing leg. The follower needs to be aware of which of the legs is the standing leg, and which one is the free leg, and be sensitive to being off axis without being off "enough" off-axis to make it neccesary to step/turn the free leg into the standing.

b) is a embellishment type boleo. The leader needs to convey that they are not going to move more after the sidestep, and suggest that there will be space for an embellishment (what works for is me is suggesting a circular movement during the sidestep by stepping in an arc - basically something that suggest that this is not a cross by softening up the alignment), and they need to give the follower time to do the embellishment at the end of the arc. The follower needs to recognize that there is space for an embellishment there, and trust that the leader will give her time to do it.

 

[All Sales Are Final]

Thanks all!

Steve: I'm pretty sure I mean a voleo. I've never knowingly been involved in a volcada (and if I had, I wouldn't know what to do).

Rain Dog: I thought the arc WAS the voleo? or it needs to be added separately?

Gssh, UK: you both (I think) speak about a controlled rotation, instead of a pivot. Did I get the direction right, in my example? Is there any way of knowing, in a given situation, whether the rotation should be clockwise or counterclockwise?

 

[Steve Pastor]

the woman’s leg traces an arc on the floor

Just FYI, in the volcada the woman's foot actually DOES trace an arc on the floor. And that is why I wasn't sure.
This couple has pretty good videos. Her is the one they did for the volcada, so hopefully you will see it yourself.

They have one for a front Boleo, too. There, they use a rock step to generate the momentum that goes into the creating the forward boleo.

 

[All Sales Are Final]

Steve, yes, I like their videos, they're very clear with the white background.

I actually watched the voleo ones earlier. It seems to me that in the "regular" (back?) voleo, he does the pivot that we were discussing earlier:


But in the forward voleo, he seemingly omits the pivot:

 

[rain_dog]

Thanks all!
Rain Dog: I thought the arc WAS the voleo? or it needs to be added separately?

Ah, ok, I misunderstood. I thought maybe you were describing a contra-boleo, which is more complicated. A plain front boleo is more straightforward, so ignore the video I referred to.

(a) The man sidesteps to his left, the woman sidesteps to her right with him; then the man pivots counterclockwise as the woman’s leg traces an arc on the floor; as her leg returns to the starting position, he steps to his right around her in a quarter-circle.

I believe in this configuration, the man needs to do a clockwise rotation with his torso to lead the front boleo, otherwise she will pivot towards a back boleo. If she were on the other foot, a counterclockwise rotation gives a front boleo, and a clockwise rotation generates a back boleo. It all depends on which foot the follower is on.

 

[Gssh]

Gssh, UK: you both (I think) speak about a controlled rotation, instead of a pivot. Did I get the direction right, in my example? Is there any way of knowing, in a given situation, whether the rotation should be clockwise or counterclockwise?

Well, i think that i would in your example rotate myself clockwise - but this is not really how i think of boleos.

In the most basic form the forward boleo is something like this:
1) The follower does a forward ocho.
2) Before the forward ocho is finished and they actually would step they change their mind, and reverse the motion.

the "magic" of the boleo happens at the moment of the reversal - just like with a gancho, or an enganche when a motion is stopped/reversed from ones core/ the standing leg the free leg does not stop - instead it continues to travel and when it reaches the end of its path/is blocked by the hip it folds. Basically a whipping/wrapping motion. And the timing and direction of this reversal is the the tricky part.

There are a lot of ways to get to 1) e.g. doing overturned ochos gives more umph, and it does not have to be a feasible ocho (i.e. it can be lead into a direction/distance that the leader could not actually follow to follower into if she really were to step into, and 2) can be done different ways, too - by the leader stepping into the opposite direction (as in the OP example), by the leader counterrotating, by the leader just using their torso, even by the leader stepping in the direction of the followers first part but counterrotating, giving a nice inline forward boleo.

And both 1) and the effect of 2) are also dependent on the follower - i.e. the impulse is not really strong enough to create that snappy an effect, but the follower shapes it - just like leaders don't push the follower from position to position, but they move themselves. (I personally think that this interplay between the leader leading and the follower confidently shaping the response to the lead is really important and needs to be talked about more).

 

[Gssh]

Ah, ok, I misunderstood. I thought maybe you were describing a contra-boleo, which is more complicated. A plain front boleo is more straightforward, so ignore the video I referred to

Hmm - maybe i am misunderstanding, too - for me a "forward" boleo is a boleo that happens when we reverse a (overturned) forward ocho (in either direction), while a "backward" bole is a boleo where we reverse a backward ocho (in either direction).

(and inline boleos are boleos where we reverse a straight walk (also either forward or backwards))

What is a contra-boleo?

 

[dchester]

Hey folks,

There seem to exist in my community (among the more experienced dancers) two views on the proper execution of a forward voleo (to the woman’s right, with her left leg):

(a) The man sidesteps to his left, the woman sidesteps to her right with him; then the man pivots counterclockwise as the woman’s leg traces an arc on the floor; as her leg returns to the starting position, he steps to his right around her in a quarter-circle.

(b) The same as (a) above, but without the man’s counterclockwise pivot accompanying the arc.

Which is more correct?

Thank you!

The voleo / boleo can be led either way. It really just comes down to what works better for you. I prefer (a), but plenty of people are successful using (b).

 

[Angel HI]

Which is more correct? Thank you!

I think, though many of the posts are good, that you guys got way removed from Final's basic question. IMHO, I have been an Ana fan ever since she popped onto the scene in the late '90s. She and Diego have really good vids, as seen here.

I think we have concluded that question is about voleos and not volcadas. And, I agree with dchester that it can be led by either or both ways according to preference and intent. In either case, regardless of the man's action, the things necessary for the lady to voleo are; over-rotation of axial movement, moving her off of (past) center, or both. The most important part of the voleo is not upsetting the lady's balance while she's dancing it.