From Latin/Swing to Argentine Tango - Help!

Steve Pastor said:
But...
We learn to walk and stand, as I have read, by trial and error.
Look at how many people walk and stand "naturally" with really bad posture.... Understanding the anatomy of the pelvis, and how it works is very helpful in teaching "good posture", me thinks.
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That is very true. I always appreciate it a lot when I find that a teacher has seriously studied anatomy. And I agree that 'natural' is often not a very helpful description - for example what exactly is "a totally natural posture" in high heels? The first time I heard that, I thought the notion was patently ridiculous, so I interpreted it as at least partly metaphorical. It's a problem. I think that the tango posture that works is not strained or forced or contrived, and as far as I can tell, that's what good teachers are always trying to convey with the word 'natural', as is the case in this video, but I don't think 'natural' is a specially helpful instruction for me, and maybe not for most people. I've often found that that's that point where I need to ask the teacher for specific feedback - is this ok, is this better or worse? - or do some other kind of exercise to get rid of whatever wierd thing I was doing.
 
Well if any of you are going to be in the Boston area around Halloween time this fall, I hear that Detlef & Melina are supposed to be teaching at Tango de los Muertos. It is usually a fantastic tango festival.
 
Steve Pastor said:
One question I thought of asking LindyKeya was, was that posture that was foisted on you canyenge like. But, given that she is just getting into this I tryied to find something to demonstrate what canyenge like is, I came across this.

Note the caption in French. I think this is one form of early tango in France.
Here is a link to the rest of this small collection.
http://www.todotango.com/english/biblioteca/imagenes/postales/postales.asp
It's supposed to be the kind that had been "cleaned up" to make it more acceptable to the upper and middle classes. Still, there is that canyenge look. BTW leaning back, or leaning forward for a corte was quite common then.
Not a good example of what we teach people now a days as "Argentine Tango".
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YES! That's it! (Except, of course, with the arms the right way -- is this what the position is supposed to be, or was the image reversed?)
Is this a posture that is still used in AT?
 
LindyKeya said:
YES! That's it! (Except, of course, with the arms the right way -- is this what the position is supposed to be, or was the image reversed?)
Is this a posture that is still used in AT?
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hmm- I'm confused now because to me at least, the cartoon drawing and the posture photo you linked to don't look alike....unless you had meant to link to the lordotic (sp?) photo and got the slouching one instead....
 
ant said:
I assume we are agreed that the Latin side has very little in common with AT, except maybe the upper body isolation exercises that some people practise in Salsa.

Looking at ballroom I feel that the main techiques are as follows:

1 Rise and fall
2 Surges in momentum/driving from the foot of the leading leg
3 Sweeping head movements from the follower
4 Connection from the lower body
5 Leaders giving an intention from the whole body and by lifting the frame of the follower
6 Learning patterns to add to the basic step pattern
7 Heel leads

Whereas in AT we aim for the reverse in 1, 2 and 3, a body connection through the chest in 4 and intention through the chest and minimal body lift and only in specific circumstances in 5 and hopefully unrehearsed lead and follow with no use of patterns other that the basic in 6 and heel leads are rare in 7.

Having said that on the micro level some techniques learned in BR may help with AT.

- A loose leg from the hip
- Movement of the leg from the hip
- understanding pressure from the lead coming through the body
- balance
- generally moving with a partner in close proximity
- allowing pressure from the lead to reflect in the leg rather than frame collapse

are some things that come to mind.
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Ah, this is helpful. I'm not a big proponent of #6 above, although I realize that is the stereotype of ballroom dancers. Your micro level things are also things I consider pretty major for ballroom.

And MsHedgehog - wow, thanks! THat clip, and the the transcript, were very helpful. It was particularly useful to see/hear/read how what they call "countermovement" works in AT, which was really great, as it was an element I hadn't considered (or been taught), but obviously plays a big role. It was also interesting to see the similarities and differences with ballroom cbm/cbmp, and simultaneously see how those work with the other elements of AT.
 
?? The "flat back" posture was the one I meant, which was not as pronouncedly hunched through the shoulders as the image Steve so wonderfully found, but was the closest I could find. The lordotic posture, on the other hand, has the chest pushed out, with the curve of the spine increased in the lower back, as opposed to decreased in the lower, and pulled somewhat forward in the flat back.
 
LindyKeya said:
?? The "flat back" posture was the one I meant, which was not as pronouncedly hunched through the shoulders as the image Steve so wonderfully found, but was the closest I could find. The lordotic posture, on the other hand, has the chest pushed out, with the curve of the spine increased in the lower back, as opposed to decreased in the lower, and pulled somewhat forward in the flat back.
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yes- that's why I asked...when you said "That's it"..well the caricature has a pretty arched looking back which isn't really like the photo you showed origianlly. In fact, the cartoon looks very early 1900's to me and isn't a good representaion of good posture...it's a cartoon...corset and bustle- stiff upright torso and large derriere...so it looks like she's arching her back to me rather than slouching in the cartoon. If you look at the cartoon carefully, she's actually got a straight up and down back and a large rear and pelvis tilted back...not a slouch. The big shoulders the "artist" made may be making her look like she's slouching, but slouching in that era would have been unheard of for ladies. Not to mention the cartoon makes them look like they'd be 10 feet tall. The human proportions are all wrong.

In the close embrace I learned, you are actually trying to flatten the upper back (as opposed to letting you shoulder blades scrunch together- no holding pencils with them in AT) by expanding your back so it could be your teacher, like my original teacher for close embrace, just didn't have the words to describe what you needed to do and you were engaging the wrong muscles to attempt to achieve it and so caused yourself pain, or you thought you had achieved what they wanted based on how it "looked" to you in the mirror.

In actuality, it may require engagment of a different set of muscles than you thought. As I stated before, *you can arrive at some similar looking postures but be engaging different sets of muscles* (quite possibly the worng ones). I can't say this often enough to people.

It took me 3 sets of master teachers to figure out what sets of muscles I was really trying to go for to get the kind of connection they wanted from me.

EDIT: My other half agrees with me and he deals with postural dysfunction as part of his profession....
 
If you really want to look at ladies posture...which is what I thought was the original point of this thread.... perhaps looking at real ladies instead of cartoons would be better...

Three differnt followers who dance different styles....note how all of them have expanded upper backs, elbows that try to stay in front of their bodies instead letting their elbows get behind them too much

Geraldine Rojas...surely no one doubts her expertise...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnC03nKl_rE&feature=related


Mariana MOntes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImiSe7h374g&feature=related

and Melina since we used their posture video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9LyjO6ElOk
 
LindyKeya said:
?? The "flat back" posture was the one I meant, which was not as pronouncedly hunched through the shoulders as the image Steve so wonderfully found, but was the closest I could find. The lordotic posture, on the other hand, has the chest pushed out, with the curve of the spine increased in the lower back, as opposed to decreased in the lower, and pulled somewhat forward in the flat back.
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Lindy
Here is another example of posture that you might enjoy. They dance open and close embrace so you get to see the posture doesn’t change you also see she isn’t wrapping her arm around his back she is in a position to gently move from closed to open with no effort it’s very subtle. Veronica dances with perfection. Notice her balance and axis and also beautiful footwork.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-kegfRZ3SI
 
hbboogie1 said:
Lindy
Here is another example of posture that you might enjoy. They dance open and close embrace so you get to see the posture doesn’t change you also see she isn’t wrapping her arm around his back she is in a position to gently move from closed to open with no effort it’s very subtle. Veronica dances with perfection. Notice her balance and axis and also beautiful footwork.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-kegfRZ3SI
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well- I don't have a problem with her posture...but IMO it would be helpful not to confuse the original question about posture with stylisitc preferences and how the arms may be placed accordingly (though those do usually entail slight postural changes also). One arm position is not any better than another, just more useful for the effect you are going for, and if the ability to drift from open to closed is what you want, well, that arm position works fine if the lady also know how to connect properly.
 
LindyKeya said:
YES! That's it! (Except, of course, with the arms the right way -- is this what the position is supposed to be, or was the image reversed?)
Is this a posture that is still used in AT?
Click to expand...
We had a thread a while back about posture.

http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=31800

Here is one that I like, but the thing about tango is that there are several "correct" answers.

Perfect+Tango+pose.jpg
 
bastet said:
well- I don't have a problem with her posture...but IMO it would be helpful not to confuse the original question about posture with stylisitc preferences and how the arms may be placed accordingly (though those do usually entail slight postural changes also). One arm position is not any better than another, just more useful for the effect you are going for, and if the ability to drift from open to closed is what you want, well, that arm position works fine if the lady also know how to connect properly.
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Actually the woman’s arm position has everything to do with posture. When the woman’s arm is completely wrapped around the man’s back she is contorting her body and creating bad posture. Lately I’ve been seeing some new grips women have started using. One I call the pickpocket hold, her arm is wrapped so far over the man’s shoulder her hand almost reaches his back pants pocket.
The same holds true for the woman’s right arm. When the leader holds her right arm up over her head her balance, axis and movement are restricted.
Without balance, axis and unrestricted movement Tango can still be danced but at what skill level?
 
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