From Latin/Swing to Argentine Tango - Help!

[opendoor]

.. Here is one that I like, but the thing about tango is that there are several "correct" answers.

Now this is interesting - does the rest of what is taught look similar to this?

The problem with that fotograph is: Only a single spot in a complex movement is shown. Sabrina stands on one foot, the other is going to be hooked behind. Usually the couple dances in V-hold.

 

[bastet]

Actually the woman’s arm position has everything to do with posture. When the woman’s arm is completely wrapped around the man’s back she is contorting her body and creating bad posture. Lately I’ve been seeing some new grips women have started using. One I call the pickpocket hold, her arm is wrapped so far over the man’s shoulder her hand almost reaches his back pants pocket.
The same holds true for the woman’s right arm. When the leader holds her right arm up over her head her balance, axis and movement are restricted.
Without balance, axis and unrestricted movement Tango can still be danced but at what skill level?

I don't know, but you commented that my posture was nice and I use my arm accross the shoulders. Nor do I contort my body. I have learned how to dance with that arm position.

I happen to hate the arm position in the video you posted. I think it teaches the ladies to dance backweighted if they aren't drilled in good grounding techniques and the only people I have seem do it really well are not your basic, garden variety social dancers, but pros. If you can get it, great, but it's not the only way.

I completely disagree that you can't have nice posture and have your arm across someone. You have to learn to relax the shoulder joints, but just because you may not like the arm there either because of looks or feel or have experience with that position doesn't make it bad. If a lady doesn't learn the techniques specific to dancing this way then, sure, it's easy for her to get try to reach and get contorted and tense, because she hasn't learned proper teachnique, but if she has, there isn't one thing wrong with it.

As Peaches said in one of the other posture threads, there isn't any dance where bad posture is encouraged.

 

[Steve Pastor]

YES! That's it! (Except, of course, with the arms the right way -- is this what the position is supposed to be, or was the image reversed?)
Is this a posture that is still used in AT?

In the postcard http://www.todotango.com/english/postcards/postal.asp?id=10 the woman does seem to be pushing her bottom out. This, I'm guessing, is a carryover from canyenge where the partners connect at the chest with both partners leaning forward with bottoms extended. "Argentine Tango" was till a reapidly evolving, international dance in the early part of the 1900s.

I posted this link because I thought LindyKeya's instructor may have been trying to get her into this posture.

It is NOT how most people dance AT, nor is it something to be mimicked if you want to learn "contemporary" AT. I have read discussions about some young women who teach AT using this bottom out posture. Don't know about you, but I would NEVER ask a woman if she was dancing with her bottom out on purpose!

Truth be told, though, I have been known to very purposely do the bottom out thing for a short period of time, just for the heck of it, when the music and mood strikes me. If someone calls me on it, I just tell 'em I'm dancing canyenge. No doubt lots of people think I'm just dancing "wrong".

 

[hbboogie1]

I don't know, but you commented that my posture was nice and I use my arm accross the shoulders. Nor do I contort my body. I have learned how to dance with that arm position.

I happen to hate the arm position in the video you posted. I think it teaches the ladies to dance backweighted if they aren't drilled in good grounding techniques and the only people I have seem do it really well are not your basic, garden variety social dancers, but pros. If you can get it, great, but it's not the only way.

I completely disagree that you can't have nice posture and have your arm across someone. You have to learn to relax the shoulder joints, but just because you may not like the arm there either because of looks or feel or have experience with that position doesn't make it bad. If a lady doesn't learn the techniques specific to dancing this way then, sure, it's easy for her to get try to reach and get contorted and tense, because she hasn't learned proper teachnique, but if she has, there isn't one thing wrong with it.

As Peaches said in one of the other posture threads, there isn't any dance where bad posture is encouraged.

I wasn’t commenting on your posture just posture in general. It’s possible to wrap the arm around the man’s upper shoulders without effecting balance if the woman is tall with long arms but what I see and I’m sure you see it too is when the woman drapes herself so far over the man that she loses her posture balance and axis. It’s just that so many women do this it’s becoming the norm? As a leader It’s my job to give the woman the space she needs to maintain her balance. When I dance with women that have poor balance it’s usually because of their embrace.

 

[bastet]

I wasn’t commenting on your posture just posture in general. It’s possible to wrap the arm around the man’s upper shoulders without effecting balance if the woman is tall with long arms but what I see and I’m sure you see it too is when the woman drapes herself so far over the man that she loses her posture balance and axis. It’s just that so many women do this it’s becoming the norm? As a leader It’s my job to give the woman the space she needs to maintain her balance. When I dance with women that have poor balance it’s usually because of their embrace.

I have certainly seen it and it is yet another aspect of poorly learned technique, just like that follows arm on the back of the shoulder thing can lead to bad habits too.

They are generally engaging the wrong set of muscles (usually lower back), basing their attempt on achieving it by visual reference without understanding how to actually use the upper back to get there. It's not really so much a height issue IMO. I am under 5'4" and my regular partner is 5'11".

I'm sure we could all list just as many pros and cons for favorite embraces but even when you look at someone like Mariana Montes or Geraldine dancing in open, you'll still see they have nicely engaged back muscles regardless of whether they are open or closed. I chose to post videos of them in closed because the OP appeared to be talking about close embrace posture and it didn't sound like a "v" from the description.

 

[Peaches]

Actually the woman’s arm position has everything to do with posture. When the woman’s arm is completely wrapped around the man’s back she is contorting her body and creating bad posture. Lately I’ve been seeing some new grips women have started using. One I call the pickpocket hold, her arm is wrapped so far over the man’s shoulder her hand almost reaches his back pants pocket.
The same holds true for the woman’s right arm. When the leader holds her right arm up over her head her balance, axis and movement are restricted.
Without balance, axis and unrestricted movement Tango can still be danced but at what skill level?

I'm sorry, but I wholeheartedly disagree.

Contorting is contorting, and it can be done regardless of the type of embrace. Bad posture, bad technique, bad dancing...are all bad regardless of which style or which embrace is being used.

It is entirely possible to dance--and dance at a high skill level--with the woman's hand draped around his neck, or down across his back, or along his back/side on the right, or on his arm. So much depends on what feels comfortable in any particular partnership--relative heights, body shapes, what things tend to be danced...the list goes on and on. The point is, is that it is all possible regardless of where/how she (or he) uses her arms...provided that it is done well, with good technique.

If her technique is bad, and she hangs off his neck with the draped arm...it's not the style and placement that's at fault, it's her technique.

 

[bastet]

I'm sorry, but I wholeheartedly disagree.

Contorting is contorting, and it can be done regardless of the type of embrace. Bad posture, bad technique, bad dancing...are all bad regardless of which style or which embrace is being used.

It is entirely possible to dance--and dance at a high skill level--with the woman's hand draped around his neck, or down across his back, or along his back/side on the right, or on his arm. So much depends on what feels comfortable in any particular partnership--relative heights, body shapes, what things tend to be danced...the list goes on and on. The point is, is that it is all possible regardless of where/how she (or he) uses her arms...provided that it is done well, with good technique.

If her technique is bad, and she hangs off his neck with the draped arm...it's not the style and placement that's at fault, it's her technique.

well said...

 

[bastet]

Without balance, axis and unrestricted movement Tango can still be danced but at what skill level?

Could you elaborate a little on what you mean by "unrestricted movement" implying greater skill? No balance and off axis makes sense enough.

I have honestly never understood why people think that if you aren't doing back sacadas, ganchos and over-rotated ochos every 10 seconds, you are "less skilled" as a dancer....we certainly have several people who beat that drum in my own town...so I can only hope that's not what you are implying.

I've had some perfectly wonderful dances that had some limits due to the embrace we chose to dance in, but it was done well and certainly required skill.

 

[Peaches]

Could you elaborate a little on what you mean by "unrestricted movement" implying greater skill? No balance and off axis makes sense enough.

I have honestly never understood why people think that if you aren't doing back sacadas, ganchos and over-rotated ochos every 10 seconds, you are "less skilled" as a dancer....we certainly have several people who beat that drum in my own town...so I can only hope that's not what you are implying.

I've had some perfectly wonderful dances that had some limits due to the embrace we chose to dance in, but it was done well and certainly required skill.

Answering only for myself, which may or may not be even relatively close to what hbboogie had in mind...

It's not about, IMO, what sorts of movements are being done (back sacadas, over-rotated ochos, etc), or even what sort of embrace is being used. To me, it's about "unrestricted movement" within the parameter of whatever embrace or style is being danced at the time.

If an embrace is fine, but the woman's movement of her legs is restricted (not moving from the hips, not keeping her free leg...well, free...and relaxed) then it's a case of restricted movement. Or their movement could be fine, but she doesn't know how to dissociate her upper body from her lower, so the movement is restricted. Or everything else is fine, but the guy seems to believe he's shearing a sheep, or was a boa constrictor in a prior life, so she can't fully move the way she needs to--to dissociate, to adjust her position or embrace (to correct for a mistake perhaps), to deal with balance issues.

Or, the woman is hanging on the guy's neck--his balance is thrown, and his shoulders will probably end up hurting like hell by the time the tanda is over.

 

[Steve Pastor]

there isn't any dance where bad posture is encouraged

"Bad posture", an alternative to the preferred posture for Western couples dances is an integral part of the style of some dances: African dance is probably the most obvious example. Canyenge and that protruding bottom is another, as are the styles of many "Lindy Hop" or Jitterbug dancers. Even the dancing it what may be the first Western Swing aka West Coast Swing features quite a "bend" at the waist at times. Country Western, too, that isn't taught in studios features quite a relaxed posture. Hungarian "folk dances" that pre date the influence of "dance masters" featured changes of posture.

I loved the scene(s) in "Save the Last Dance" where the ballet trained young woman was - shall we say ridiculed? - for her upright posture.

OK. I know this is sort of a tangent (what else is new?), but I am convinced that taking Western "dance master" styles as the touchstone for Europeanized dance leaves out a big part of a picture that is much more rich in variation.

Add enough qualifiers to the quoted statement, and I'm ok with it.

 

[hbboogie1]

Could you elaborate a little on what you mean by "unrestricted movement" implying greater skill? No balance and off axis makes sense enough.

I have honestly never understood why people think that if you aren't doing back sacadas, ganchos and over-rotated ochos every 10 seconds, you are "less skilled" as a dancer....we certainly have several people who beat that drum in my own town...so I can only hope that's not what you are implying.

I've had some perfectly wonderful dances that had some limits due to the embrace we chose to dance in, but it was done well and certainly required skill.

If the woman is lead into a figure and cannot dance it on her axis and in balance would you agree it’s because her movement is restricted in some way?

 

[Ampster]

Originally Posted by hbboogie1
Actually the woman’s arm position has everything to do with posture. When the woman’s arm is completely wrapped around the man’s back she is contorting her body and creating bad posture. Lately I’ve been seeing some new grips women have started using. One I call the pickpocket hold, her arm is wrapped so far over the man’s shoulder her hand almost reaches his back pants pocket.
The same holds true for the woman’s right arm. When the leader holds her right arm up over her head her balance, axis and movement are restricted.
Without balance, axis and unrestricted movement Tango can still be danced but at what skill level?

Originally Posted by bastet
Could you elaborate a little on what you mean by "unrestricted movement" implying greater skill? No balance and off axis makes sense enough.

I have honestly never understood why people think that if you aren't doing back sacadas, ganchos and over-rotated ochos every 10 seconds, you are "less skilled" as a dancer....we certainly have several people who beat that drum in my own town...so I can only hope that's not what you are implying.

I've had some perfectly wonderful dances that had some limits due to the embrace we chose to dance in, but it was done well and certainly required skill.

If the woman is lead into a figure and cannot dance it on her axis and in balance would you agree it’s because her movement is restricted in some way?

It's possible. But, it could be the fault of the leader, and not because of her embrace.

You could have led something badly causing her to be off balance. That's the leader's fault, not hers. It's happens when you dodn't wait for her to land her weight, or didn't give her enough space... a myriad of reasons. Or, as peaches said, her technique could be bad...

 

[hbboogie1]

It's possible. But, it could be the fault of the leader, and not because of her embrace.

You could have led something badly causing her to be off balance. That's the leader's fault, not hers. It's happens when you dodn't wait for her to land her weight, or didn't give her enough space... a myriad of reasons. Or, as peaches said, her technique could be bad...

Whoa back up we’re talking about the woman’s arm wrapped around the man restricting her movement and putting her off balance.
You could take one of her shoes and toss it out the window and that would also cause her to be off balance but that’s a different thread for later.

 

[Ampster]

Whoa back up we’re talking about the woman’s arm wrapped around the man restricting her movement and putting her off balance.

... And what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter. If she has her octopus arms draped around, its still the leaders job to lead her to center so she can balance. Even if she has bad technique, it's still the leader's job to make it work as best as possible. Otherwise, its not good leading.

It is after, all about HER.

 

[dchester]

If the woman is lead into a figure and cannot dance it on her axis and in balance would you agree it’s because her movement is restricted in some way?

What about if they are sharing weight (like an apilado embrace)?