Get Outta There!!

[Brummbaer]

In the beginning the tango dance skills were low in BsAs.

In the beginning, by definition, dance skills are low. If there were video records, and such descriptions as there are, I suspect we'd only just identify some elements of AT executed poorly.

Tell, what is your current project? A teacher training, by chance?

Certainly not teaching. More working on consolidating what's already been taught from my now extensive records. If you like, a more fluent, musical approach, using the vocabulary in a better way.

 

[tangomaniac]

That is mutually exclusive or your vocabulary is different.


But that's how the V-hold is supposed to be. Sternum is not in touch. Upright posture, no lean. There should be 12 degrees of opening on the side of your left hand. The toes then no longer point exactly in extension to each other. All this has consequences for the caminada. That's why V-hold and tango de salón are synonymous concepts. You dance in a different style on the parquet floor than in a club, in a bar or in a confitería.

That is mutually exclusive or your vocabulary is different.


But that's how the V-hold is supposed to be. Sternum is not in touch. Upright posture, no lean. There should be 12 degrees of opening on the side of your left hand. The toes then no longer point exactly in extension to each other. All this has consequences for the caminada. That's why V-hold and tango de salón are synonymous concepts. You dance in a different style on the parquet floor than in a club, in a bar or in a confitería.

Where did "12 degrees of opening" come from? Am I supposed to measure it with a protractor?

I had 3 years of embodied yoga to squeeze the tension out of my body. I can rotate my shoulders and hips almost 90 degrees in each direction without turning my toes. Some followers can do ochos without turning the entire body.

 

[opendoor]

..can rotate my shoulders and hips almost 90 degrees in each direction without turning my toes..

I expect that from every dancer. But that wasn't my point at all. Maybe you don't understand me. My English is not that good, sorry!

 

[tangoing]

I try to relax the follower's right arm but it's usually useless. Sometimes, I hold her wrist instead, to relieve the pressure in my arthritic shoulder. She is bound and determined to push. I wonder if a beginner leader told her to "give me resistance." If beginner leaders give resistance, the followers will give resistance in kind. This is a bad habit. Bad habits can be unlearned but one has to know (s)he has a bad habit.

So as a beginner it was drilled into my head by a number of teachers to just keep the open arm out there, to not push/pull but offer some support. But recent private lessons with some Argentine teachers (some of whom are quite famous) have told me that I’m not using my left arm enough. As in both arms should have equal energy otherwise the embrace feels incongruent. So not necessarily pushing/pulling but being a lot more present and as engaging as my other arm, which can mean very slightly tensing the arm when leading a back ocho to give the follower some support, which I think some teachers may label it as “resistance”. This varies a lot from follower to follower though, even from world class teacher to world class teacher.

 

[Brummbaer]

So as a beginner it was drilled into my head by a number of teachers to just keep the open arm out there, to not push/pull but offer some support

It's one of those 'lies to children' that we're taught when beginners. Then come the refinements. Sure, you can practice without holding at all, even separated with no contact as useful exercises, but it's as bad dancing with an air princess as dragging round a wardrobe. Whilst it's up to to the leader to keep the follower safe, say during a giro or colgada, the follower also needs some hold, say, during a follower's pivoting calesita. I'm not dancing with a rag doll. We're both involved in this dance.

We've been told exactly the same things as beginners, but then come the refinements from more advanced dancers/teachers and you start to enhance some of those early instructions. The tango embrace has been described as a 'hug', which it is in a sense, but there are different styles and degrees of 'hug', even with adjustments through the dance.

 

[opendoor]

..as a beginner it was drilled into my head ..to just keep the open arm out there, to not push/pull...

This old wives' tale was driven out of me when I immersed myself in the Villa-Urquisa style. There one leads very well with the arms.

 

[Brummbaer]

This old wives' tale was driven out of me when I immersed myself in the Villa-Urquisa style. There one leads very well with the arms.

There are many elements involved in leading; it's incorrect to give undue emphasis to one, or ignore all the others to emphasize one.

True, Villa-Urquiza, or Tango Estilio del Barrio, does open during, say ochos and turns and, in its purest form omit some moves. Nevertheless it's still led (basically) with the chest. I do recollect an interview with an established proponent who said he led with his arms, but his long-standing partner said he led with his whole body.

Interesting how we give emphasis to these little gems. I'd say it's never push-pull with the arms, but dissociation. Leading with my 'chest' (but not my chest alone), my arms are an extension of my body and shoulders (and capable of adjustment). But that's just my perspective.

 

[JournalInTime]

If you move your torso, your chest is part of that. If you move your chest, your shoulders come along. If your shoulders are in motion, so are your arms. It's like in the old Johnson brothers song, Dem Bones. The idea of not using the arms at all to lead is bizarre.

But it's more bizarre to lead only with the arms. You'd need one arm longer than the other, or more likely for a human, you'd need to torque your partner around with the famous push/pull driven by the arm muscles. I think that is what teachers tell us not to do.

I was taught that the arms establish the back and sides of the abrazo. For leads like calesitas and colgadas, their use is essential, because these are "block leads": you block your partner's dissociation at some fixed degree to turn their whole body en bloc.

I was also taught never ever, in any step, to do la machine à laver: twist my partner like the agitator or drum of a washing machine. You can damage their spine that way. There's no need to do it, and I'd be surprised if dancers of any style who say "I use my arms" really mean that and not what I wrote above.

 

[Rabbit]

I was also taught never ever, in any step, to do la machine à laver: twist my partner like the agitator or drum of a washing machine. You can damage their spine that way. There's no need to do it, and I'd be surprised if dancers of any style who say "I use my arms" really mean that and not what I wrote above.

There are a lot of dancers who dissociate and also use the open arm in combination. It's clear they are doing this because the shoulder-arm line is broken at either shoulder, elbow or both. I personally think it looks ugly.

 

[JournalInTime]

There are a lot of dancers who dissociate and also use the open arm in combination. It's clear they are doing this because the shoulder-arm line is broken at either shoulder, elbow or both. I personally think it looks ugly.

I agree. I see it most often in two groups:

1. Social dancers who come from styles with genuine arm leads – notably salsa and swing styles.
2. Stage tango people who use the arms on the open side to create larger, more dramatic movements.

I prefer to relax my shoulders down and keep them round through my back, let my elbows point floorward, and keep my left (open) arm fixed relative to my body without being rigid. When I play with arms in a lead, it's nearly always my right (closed) arm to block or unblock partner dissociation, or to create suspension or downlead. This is invisible, as it's how I apply pressure in a still arm. I will raise the left arm in a soltada, of course, or elongate it in a colgada.

Come to think of it, some of the signs of an arm-leader are unrelaxed or hunched/high shoulders, elbows that point out instead of down, a left arm that moves up and down, or a right arm that visibly moves at all on the follower's back. Those last two have exceptions when the movement is deliberate as an upper-body embellishment, but that isn't leading – that's being showy.

 

[JournalInTime]

I also think that you have to get people to spell out what they actually mean. "I lead with my arms" can be an imprecise way of saying:

"I use my arms to keep my partner in a fixed position while I lead." Torsos are together; leader's right arm is at best firm, at worst a clamp; and leader's left arm is at best fixed, at worst rigid. This creates the famous "frame" used in other dances, and used by some tango dancers as well. The entire body leads, but the arms bring the follower along for the ride. I dislike this because I prefer torso-on-torso rolling, but lots of older "milonguero" dancers use it, and the follower usually ends up replacing pivots with crossing steps.

"My partner and I have a secret signal to make our arms on the open side noodly, so we can do big, flashy arm movements, especially in finales." So, not a lead at all . . . just a signal to say we'll pull our arms up real high, or down to hip level, or back behind me, or whatever while we pose like peacocks. I've done it in choreos, but it looks goofy at the milonga – like, "Look at us! Aren't we just precious?"

Likewise, "I never lead with my arms" is as I said: "I never pivot my partner with arm movement unrelated to torso movement." Of course the arms are still leading, just not on their own!

I'd be interested (seriously) to know whether any double-arm amputees dance tango successfully.

 

[noobster]

Likewise, "I never lead with my arms" is as I said: "I never pivot my partner with arm movement unrelated to torso movement." Of course the arms are still leading, just not on their own!

Yes I think this is the thing that makes arm leads so uncomfortable in tango. I don't at all mind the arm leading in salsa; totally expected and actually some salsa leaders are quite lovely-feeling, like being in a Jacuzzi.

I guess the problem in tango is not the fact of an arm lead per se but that issues arise when the leader unknowingly leads something different with arms vs torso. I instinctively try to follow the torso and then get my shoulder wrenched by the contradictory arm lead.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Interesting how we give emphasis to these little gems. I'd say it's never push-pull with the arms, but dissociation. Leading with my 'chest' (but not my chest alone), my arms are an extension of my body and shoulders (and capable of adjustment). But that's just my perspective.

Also depends where your arms are and how you use them. If your left arm is in close, you're not going to be using much leverage there. It offers some follower support but it's mostly to balance the embrace. In certain styles of dance or, at least, with some dancers, that left hand is even held between the partners and close to the chest--there's no pushing and pulling at all in that case. It's a nice, intimate way to dance when you find the right follower and good for very crowded spaces.

 

[Brummbaer]

Also depends where your arms are and how you use them. If your left arm is in close, you're not going to be using much leverage there. It offers some follower support but it's mostly to balance the embrace. In certain styles of dance or, at least, with some dancers, that left hand is even held between the partners and close to the chest--there's no pushing and pulling at all in that case. It's a nice, intimate way to dance when you find the right follower and good for very crowded spaces.

Whatever. There are many 'styles', but it's not about the leader leading by push-pull with the arms on the follower - certainly a temptation in a continuous open hold (but, of course, some would just avoid those followers). There's a whole treatise to be written on this aside from those which already exist, along with countless videos and descriptions, not to mention perceived rules of approach. You find what works most in your locale, or adapt if you partner someone with a distinctly different style. Maybe you even develop your own recognisable embrace, or adopt and adapt from what's gone before, to convey the image and sensations you want on your tango journey. Hopefully it's comfortable and beneficial to both partners, but never the leader pushing-pulling with arms alone.

Having said all that, I'm content at the moment with the 'hug' I use and basic lead, but I'm open to further refinements which will come.

 

[JournalInTime]

I guess the problem in tango is not the fact of an arm lead per se but that issues arise when the leader unknowingly leads something different with arms vs torso. I instinctively try to follow the torso and then get my shoulder wrenched by the contradictory arm lead.

Exactly.

Arm-leading dancers often push or pull with the arm while turning in the opposite sense. That bends their partner at the spine. If they must pull, they should turn their whole left side away at the same time; if they must push, they should advance their whole left side at the same time. When they pull and let that bring in their left chest, or push and let that open their left chest, they're creating two different leads at once: "Come here – no, follow my chest away" or "Go away – no, follow my chest in." I suspect it's caused by them thinking that only the arm leads when most good followers think mostly the chest leads.