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Get Outta There!!
- Thread starter tangomaniac
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JournalInTime
Forum Master
I've learned the V embrace. It was how I danced for a while for stylistic reasons, and it's still how I dance with older Argentine women. It's a natural transition between the so-called canyengue embrace (which is totally reliant on hinging movements) and the more recent fully closed embrace (which was initially scandalous). All tango vocabulary can work there, but you have to dance turns with more beats/amagues and crossing-not-pivoting steps, and fewer sacadas (though back sacadas are way easier!), and you must accept more use of the arms on the open side.
The follower being off to their left/the leader's right but flat is not the same thing as the V. As was said already, they're wedged, not hinged. Nobody can move well, and you can't dance all tango vocabulary. I would say that isn't stylistic, but wrong. It can be caused by either partner:
The leader can invite it by putting the follower there or by not closing their right side enough. Beginner leaders often develop this habit as a way to (1) more easily see where they are going, and (2) reduce the risk of stepping on a foot.
The follower can establish it by snuggling in there uninvited; timid followers of all levels seem to like the security of this. Less often, it's due to them having a rigid right arm, pushing themselves in there – a common issue with ballroom dancers.
As with everything in tango, if you dance often with a person who does this, you might subconsciously go there yourself and become someone who dances like this.
The only way I've ever found to resolve it is to twist my right/closed side extra-closed, drop the presence of my left arm to almost zero, and walk on the dark side. That forces the issue of the follower moving to my left/their right, whereupon I reestablish a more normal embrace. I've found that after doing this a few times, most followers stop snuggling or straight-arming themselves into my armpit.
The follower being off to their left/the leader's right but flat is not the same thing as the V. As was said already, they're wedged, not hinged. Nobody can move well, and you can't dance all tango vocabulary. I would say that isn't stylistic, but wrong. It can be caused by either partner:
The leader can invite it by putting the follower there or by not closing their right side enough. Beginner leaders often develop this habit as a way to (1) more easily see where they are going, and (2) reduce the risk of stepping on a foot.
The follower can establish it by snuggling in there uninvited; timid followers of all levels seem to like the security of this. Less often, it's due to them having a rigid right arm, pushing themselves in there – a common issue with ballroom dancers.
As with everything in tango, if you dance often with a person who does this, you might subconsciously go there yourself and become someone who dances like this.
The only way I've ever found to resolve it is to twist my right/closed side extra-closed, drop the presence of my left arm to almost zero, and walk on the dark side. That forces the issue of the follower moving to my left/their right, whereupon I reestablish a more normal embrace. I've found that after doing this a few times, most followers stop snuggling or straight-arming themselves into my armpit.
tangomaniac
Well-Known Member
I made a posting error. I deleted unnecessary text from the original post and wrote my response in that area. I should have written my reply in the "reply zone" and then deleted unnecessary text.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Ooops. Yes. Her left arm over your right shoulder. Still don't see the armpit to armpit part though.
tangomaniac
Well-Known Member
Look at this video. The woman is off centered, mashed into his armpit.
Another way to describe the problem is driving a car when a front wheel is out of alignment. The car will pull in the direction of the misaligned tire. Both tires should be facing straight ahead.
Hope this helps.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
I suspect you mean that she mashes her armpit into his biceps, which can be uncomfortable. His right armpit is not accessible to her.
tangomaniac
Well-Known Member
His right armpit may not be accessible because he's taller than her. I'm short so my armpit is easily accessible.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Even in your case, is your partner's arm not over your right arm somewhere? Ideally over your shoulder, but that seems not to be the case here.
tangomaniac
Well-Known Member
That's the problem. To put their arm over my shoulder, some women have to contort their body to reach the shoulder. They move in closer getting into my armpit.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
OK, I think I understand. Since you are probably a bit shorter than me, your hand is higher on her back and you open your armpit.
My partners may be just too far to the right, that's no issue for me, I change to a few steps at the right in the crossed system.
A V-embrace when she presses her forehead against my temple is a problem for me because I assume the lady wants to protect her "front" from being touched. I don't want to undermine that and try to somehow bring the tanda to an end with decency.
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tangomaniac
Well-Known Member
Actually, I embrace my right arm around the small of her back.
I'd still recommend getting a private lesson from a good teacher on this. And it needs to be observed.
My simplistic take is that you're letting the follower in, and the follower is not adjusting to the height difference. It's similar to the leader's right shoulder being pulled forward by reaching too far round the follower, or pulling them in. If the height difference is so much that the follower can't easily reach over the shoulder, then they need to allow their hand to slide, but not to push the leader away.
Other explanations are possible, and will certainly be argued about!
My question on this would be: What am I doing which causes the follower to do that?
TTanguero
Forum Master
I think this is a good rule of thumb. If one follower does something you don't like, it's probably her; if multiple followers do it (as appears to be the case for tangomaniac), it's probably you.
The other question is whether it's a general tendency in a local area where a group of leaders and followers regularly dance together and reinforce each others' bad habits
JournalInTime
Forum Master
I believe it's more shaded: If far less than half of followers (say, 1-3 out of 10) do something a given leader dislikes, it's probably those few followers. If far more than half of followers (say, 7-10 out of 10) do that thing, it's probably the leader. And if it's in the middle (say, 4-6 out of 10), it's probably just that evening.
That's why there's shading.
Around here, for instance, many experienced, popular dancers dance upright like pins, with light between their bodies, the leaders directing the followers toward couples approaching from behind when they lead turns (rather than turning as they advance), the followers taking huge steps that form a square around the leader (rather than curving their steps along an imaginary circle of fixed radius). These are not beginners. But they are the majority.
So, when I dance with lots of weight-sharing and totally close the embrace from collarbones to hips, leading tight turns that roll along the line of dance inside our resting diameter, followers used to dancing the other way do weird things. They seem blind to the possibility that a turn can be (1) a progressive rather than static step, (2) small and circular rather than huge and square, or (3) defined as a mutual rotation around a single shared axis rather than two axes walking around a third. They're taken aback that their steps must curve and add a linear component down the line of dance, and that they have to create their pivots by rolling against my body.
I don't take this as a fault on my part. I can dance perfectly well with older, more experienced dancers used to crowded floors. It's a specific generation of younger dancers who have this problem. And it is a problem, because it leads to very bad floorcraft.