tangomaniac
Well-Known Member
I noticed that multiple followers dance in the armpits of other men, not just mine. If it only happened to me, I'd have to question my leading. But it seems to be their default position, which has nothing to do with me.
Get Outta There!!
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TTanguero
Forum Master
But you're describing something which multiple followers do, which is a problem for you. I'd echo the advice for a private on how you can change your lead to discourage this.
So, is it the 'style' of the locale? Maybe what they've been taught, or not learned? Or maybe you were taught as those others were taught to lead, so get a similar result. Do they dance the same way with any well experienced leaders?
I'd still recommend a good teacher (maybe not theirs) for a private lesson. You're asking the internet for an explanation when it needs to be observed. I'd be inclined to look for an avoidance strategy in your leading. My wife recently asked one of our teachers for recovery strategies with leaders who can't lead volcadas properly (not mine
), so there probably are some tricks that can be applied.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Dance with taller women.
tangomaniac
Well-Known Member
Dance with taller women.
The problem with dancing with taller people is they hold their arms at their shoulder level, which is higher than may shoulder. I have to raise my arms to their level. That's uncomfortable.
I see tall men leading shorter women. The woman's left arm is high in the sky, like she's grabbing a pole on the subway to steady her balance.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
I am really not sure what you are doing. Which arms are they holding higher than your shoulder level? Your left arm? I don't see that as a problem myself. I kind of prefer my left hand a bit above my shoulder. I've danced with taller women and shorter women. It's much easier for a taller woman to get her arm around your shoulder than it is for a shorter woman. Are you dancing close to your partner, in direct chest-to-chest contact? Even shorter women can do it providing they're not really a lot shorter than you.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
He should LOWER his arm so she doesn't have to stretch.
I find that uncomfortable too! Generally I will go for a lower hold on the outside of the leader’s arm. About bicep level. I don’t like to lock out my elbows so won’t generally aim for a shoulder that’s over my head.
I have had this happen at times, sliding to the leader's right. I don't like it either (I prefer a full-frontal embrace, given the option). I'm not totally sure why it happens but I have speculated that it could be step length mismatch, where his steps are longer than mine and he is effectively walking past me. (I'm 160 cm.) I've tried to remedy by lengthening my steps but that has never worked very well, and if I extend my steps too much it becomes difficult to dance with good control.
I think @JournalInTime's remedy of walking on the dark side sounds like it would work; unfortunately I can't apply that fix from my end of things.
It could be, but the clue is in leader - they're meant to lead and not
Several of our teachers have made the point of the follower stopping the leader from getting past you by resisting their step. I had the pleasure of dancing with an elderly lady, now no longer with us, who, despite appearing frail, could certainly hold errant leaders in place.
Again, consult your teacher(s).
JournalInTime
Forum Master
There's resistance in tango teaching and tango communities to the idea that followers can help decide how leading is done. If followers repeatedly accept invitations from leaders who take huge steps or shove them off to one side . . . well, no surprise, leaders will keep on doing that, regardless of whether teachers tell them not to. While it tends to be followers who tolerate poor leaders by virtue of accepting invitations, the core concept holds for leaders as well.
What "sticks" at the milonga isn't what's taught, elegant, polite, or popular in YouTube videos, but the laziest habits people can get away with yet still dance. For many leaders, that's minimizing the follower's space in the dance in order to show off cool steps or manly strides – or dancing with the follower off to one side in order to remove the need to learn to turn to see traffic and the need to learn to walk to avoid stepping on feet. For many followers, that's using the leader as a barre or pole to show off their cool ornaments and best floating princess impression, meaning they don't need to learn to manage their own energy and balance – or settling into an armpit because it's snuggly.
If followers and leaders simply refused to dance with people with those bad habits, said habits would fade away. But as those habits make dancing easier for many, they're tolerated . . . and newcomers see them and get infected by the same virus. Of course, those habits also make dancing less safe for all, but that seems to be a low priority for many. Those habits cut off entire realms of vocabulary, too, but that stuff would require more pesky learning anyway.
Improvement is hard, bad habits are easy. I strongly suspect whoever causes the armpit thing, it won't go away because it's too convenient for many.
What "sticks" at the milonga isn't what's taught, elegant, polite, or popular in YouTube videos, but the laziest habits people can get away with yet still dance. For many leaders, that's minimizing the follower's space in the dance in order to show off cool steps or manly strides – or dancing with the follower off to one side in order to remove the need to learn to turn to see traffic and the need to learn to walk to avoid stepping on feet. For many followers, that's using the leader as a barre or pole to show off their cool ornaments and best floating princess impression, meaning they don't need to learn to manage their own energy and balance – or settling into an armpit because it's snuggly.
If followers and leaders simply refused to dance with people with those bad habits, said habits would fade away. But as those habits make dancing easier for many, they're tolerated . . . and newcomers see them and get infected by the same virus. Of course, those habits also make dancing less safe for all, but that seems to be a low priority for many. Those habits cut off entire realms of vocabulary, too, but that stuff would require more pesky learning anyway.
Improvement is hard, bad habits are easy. I strongly suspect whoever causes the armpit thing, it won't go away because it's too convenient for many.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
Entirely my opinion. On average, everyone has the dance partners they deserve. Mostly mediocre ones.
I think that it most likely a style thing (or, depending how much you dislike that style a bad habit). The V has some advantages: It basically allows the couple to use both close embrace and open embrace technique/vocabulary in exchange for making the vocabulary (more) asymmetrical. I am not that familiar with it because i have found that using a fluid embrace works better for me if i want to shift frameworks, but from my experiments i would guess that the problem is due to either the leader or the follower not keeping their body aligned in respect to the direction of their movement - for debugging i would try to play with what i call "faking canyuenge" using 90+ degree V's and the "front" of the couple switching between the leaders chest and the middle of the open side of the v. For social dancing what i do is depending on the situation either opening the embrace by doing left turns and then stay in open, or if there is no space use a lot of ocho cortados and right turns and try to figure out a more comfortable/stable alignment for the closed side.
TTanguero
Forum Master
I'm lucky – on average, I get much better dance partners than I deserve.
I worked with one maestra that wanted the leader's right upper arm solid against the follower's left rib cage. This put her directly in front of me, in full contact. She was real close to my height in her dance heels.
This reminds me of the Ballroom concept of "the wall". The leader sets a wall where he wants the follower to stop. The right arm sets a good wall. She didn't want any pressure on her right hand -- she collapsed to something she found painful. No wall.
She's also adamant about her leaders not getting into her armpit. That's a personal space to her (and my ballroom teacher).
How to get the right upper arm against the follower's rib cage when she's much shorter than you is another problem.
I join the recommendations for personal attention.
This reminds me of the Ballroom concept of "the wall". The leader sets a wall where he wants the follower to stop. The right arm sets a good wall. She didn't want any pressure on her right hand -- she collapsed to something she found painful. No wall.
She's also adamant about her leaders not getting into her armpit. That's a personal space to her (and my ballroom teacher).
How to get the right upper arm against the follower's rib cage when she's much shorter than you is another problem.
I join the recommendations for personal attention.