opendoor
Forum Master
In my town every student is taught from the very first lesson on: the follower defines the hold, the follower defines the distance. And our tango scene is a bigger one.
Get Outta There!!
- Thread starter tangomaniac
- Start date
Tangogal wrote that matching the leader is one factor, but it is not the only factor. No follower should feel that they should match the leader at the expense of their own comfort, and no leader should assert that his preference is a higher priority than the follower's comfort.
Some reasons why a follower might elect to dance in a V-embrace:
This is the embrace that have been taught
This is the embrace in which they are most familiar dancing
This is the embrace in which they feel the best connection, with a specific leader or with all leaders
They are not comfortable with chest-on-chest contact for physical reasons
They are not comfortable with chest-on-chest contact for cultural reasons
They are not comfortable with chest-on-chest contact for personal reasons
They are not comfortable with chest-on-chest contact for any reason at all
They are taller than their leader, and they are not comfortable to dance with their chest at the height of his face
I would suggest that if you are finding yourself restricted by the V-embrace again and again, instead of complaining that your followers are not adapting perfectly to your own preferences, that you seek instruction for yourself in how to dance in V-embrace in a way that is pain-free and enjoyable.
No. It can always be improved. And from any perspective.
“Matching” is a broad concept across many dances. It’s less emphasised in AT because the follower generally mirrors the leader.
I have come across variations on “the follower chooses the embrace” but usually the teachers mean the follower chooses the distance or they mean that the follower must be comfortable.
Many teachers do not have experience in partner dance beyond dancing with their tango partner. I’ve heard odd and wrong instructions given to followers especially in unusual movements like spins and travel turns. For example one instructor said it was the followers responsibility to wait for the leader at the end of a travel turn when actually it’s the leader’s responsibility to get ahead of the follower.
That is a valid point, except they've probably danced with several AT partners, at least initially. I find many eventually came to AT from other genres, except for some of the Argentians, but some there have had a background in ballet. But, if they're not dancing with their students, it's not as helpful.
Sometimes it's mansplaining; sometimes it's a different perspective; and sometimes just wrong. It's usually more helpful when teachers are a double-act and complement each others role.
This might be true, but high-level Argentine teachers who teach globally are very familiar with different types of embraces, both because they move from one to another and back again during performances and understand them technically at an expert level, and also because they teach around the world in communities where the standard embrace differs, including in places where a conservative culture inhibits very close bodily contact. When working with students, these teachers emphasize how to adapt to different partners, including different heights, dance levels, styles, and yes, different types of embraces. I've heard more than one respected maestro/a say "the goal is to be able to dance well with any partner, anywhere."
Most dancers would say they dance close embrace, but what constitutes the standard close embrace differs if you're in Buenos Aires vs. New York vs. Berlin vs. Istanbul. In some places, a close embrace is often only danced with trusted partners, or is gradually approached over the course of a tanda as comfort builds, sometimes starting from the V-embrace - speaking from experience.
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And, of course, there's also that social aspect of trust (ignoring Covid-19). It's the people you meet in the practica, or the group lessons, or similar that will want, and accept, an invite and choose some form of close hold. (But that's a much more detailed conversation about social contacts, solos, beginners, teaching, and using cabeceo - which is under another thread).
The point is that this type of problem, causes and strategies could be investigated, with some social contact who is interested, at a practica, but probably not the informal milonga, the practilonga. Which, again, is considered under another thread.
tangomaniac
Well-Known Member
I didn't write there can't be improvement. Satisfied dancers don't feel the need to improve.
tangomaniac
Well-Known Member
The problem isn't the V-embrace. The problem is their pushing. Have you seen my X-rays? Well, my orthopedist has seen my X-rays and he said no pressure on the shoulders. Women can dance in a
V-embrace but they don't have the right to ruin my frame! My teacher said, "Don't let a woman's poor dancing ruin your dancing."
I think this pushing comes from being told to "give resistance." I don't give resistance and don't expect resistance in return. If I lead a sidestep and the woman resists, she doesn't step or takes a tiny step. If I lead a back step and the woman resists, she doesn't step or takes a tiny step. How can I lead a woman who resists the lead?
My ballroom and Argentine tango teachers didn't give me resistance during lessons. Why should I expect resistance on the dance floor? My ballroom teacher called it a feather lead, very light to the touch.
I've found the best tandas are from followers who move well by not offering resistance. These followers don't think what I'm leading. They feel what I'm leading. You can't feel a lead when your muscles are clenched due to resistance.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Alas, so true.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Is this really true? I haven't danced in that many places, but I certainly see videos of social dancing from around the world and their idea of the abrazo pretty much matches my own and what I've seen in vids of milongas in BA. I don't see a noticeable difference. Of course, once you get into it, one-on-one, there are always subtle differences but the general understanding of "close" and "embrace" appear to be widespread.
Based on my own experience, it is. The Porteño abrazo much more resembles an actual hug than is standard in the US, and among some older school milonguero dancers (like at Cachirulo), so much so that it is restrictive, actually preventing the follower's chest from rotating away from theirs. Berlin in particular is famous for its V-embrace, and is where I first encountered it. Dancers will dance a more chest-to-chest close embrace as well, but often not immediately unless the dancers are known to each other. In Turkey, most dancers appear to spend more time in open embrace than in close, and the abrazo in close embrace is less engaged, less 'warm' you might say. (Turkish leaders will also always wait for their followers to enter close embrace of their own accord, and it is common for them to give their partners "space" in the dance to improvise interesting rhythmic sections).
The festival circuit is a bit of a different ecosystem, and those dancers are much more likely to prefer a close embrace, but generally have a higher level and are more skilled at adapting to different styles. Also, Berlin has a huge number of expat dancers from Italy and Spain who have no allergy to dancing close.
Note: Keep in mind that tango tourists make up a very significant number of dancers at BA milongas, so from videos you'll not know if the dancers you're watching are Porteño, or are visiting Russians or Americans.
Maybe some dancers who have also danced at these locales can chime in here...
In my community V is extremely rare. A-frame is the most common both flexible and rigid (milonguero?). We also have a significant number of open dancers. As open as two people can be with their arms entwined 
I’m currently back in love with open embrace. I like the power and freedom of being on my own axis and fully in control of my own movements.
I’m currently back in love with open embrace. I like the power and freedom of being on my own axis and fully in control of my own movements.
I've danced with followers from almost every country in Europe (it's more likely that they are travelling than myself) and close+parallel is by far the most common embrace I receive (including in Berlin). Turkish and Greek dancers are the most likely to dance open and it is quite common for them to have an academic style of dancing.
That's the description we have - but that's from an Argentinian.
Agree.
Occasionally, purposefully 'V', but that's from someone who's regularly in BsAs and the US, but other styles are also adopted. Also, occasionally, from a poor leader who doesn't dissociate, or some other embrace issue.
Yes. I'd put it down as one of the consequences of Covid-19 and not meeting socially.
Does it matter? There's no single, correct, way. Interesting from a historical perspective, how AT was portrayed, and how AT was imported to some countries and then taught.
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