Get Outta There!!

[tangoing]

Come to think of it, some of the signs of an arm-leader are unrelaxed or hunched/high shoulders, elbows that point out instead of down, a left arm that moves up and down, or a right arm that visibly moves at all on the follower's back. Those last two have exceptions when the movement is deliberate as an upper-body embellishment, but that isn't leading – that's being showy.

What about when you have to adjust the embrace to be more open/closed? Not necessarily going from tight milonguero to open salon style (although that counts too), but certain movements in close embrace requires you to open up a bit which involves your right arm giving space to the follower so your right arm will slide around the followers back.

 

[JournalInTime]

What about when you have to adjust the embrace to be more open/closed? Not necessarily going from tight milonguero to open salon style (although that counts too), but certain movements in close embrace requires you to open up a bit which involves your right arm giving space to the follower so your right arm will slide around the followers back.

You don't move your arm for that. You apply sufficiently light pressure that the follower can roll and slide as much as needed. A dancer with excellent dissociation can dance their whole vocabulary except colgadas at point-blank range; they'll roll, but they won't slide; my friends O. & F. dance this way, executing their entire vocabulary, well, at fixed range. The less dissociation the dancer has, the more they'll need to slide, which goes for leaders and followers alike; e.g., I can execute leader back sacadas without opening, but many leaders open somewhat for this.

The idea that you preemptively open as preparation for a step is a cause of uncomfortable arm-leading. You certainly preemptively side or roll to prepare, but the opening should be a result of sliding. The arm stays in the same position relative to your body, just not relative to your follower's body.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Having said all that, I'm content at the moment with the 'hug' I use and basic lead, but I'm open to further refinements which will come.

This is a good place to be.

 

[Bailango]

I agree. I see it most often in two groups:

1. Social dancers who come from styles with genuine arm leads – notably salsa and swing styles.

There are no arm leads in either salsa or swing. You still need to lead with your frame and core like in Tango. Bad dancers abound in all dance styles.

 

[Bailango]

Is this really true? I haven't danced in that many places, but I certainly see videos of social dancing from around the world and their idea of the abrazo pretty much matches my own and what I've seen in vids of milongas in BA. I don't see a noticeable difference. Of course, once you get into it, one-on-one, there are always subtle differences but the general understanding of "close" and "embrace" appear to be widespread.

Based on my own experience, it is. The Porteño abrazo much more resembles an actual hug than is standard in the US, and among some older school milonguero dancers (like at Cachirulo), so much so that it is restrictive, actually preventing the follower's chest from rotating away from theirs. Berlin in particular is famous for its V-embrace, and is where I first encountered it. Dancers will dance a more chest-to-chest close embrace as well, but often not immediately unless the dancers are known to each other. In Turkey, most dancers appear to spend more time in open embrace than in close, and the abrazo in close embrace is less engaged, less 'warm' you might say. (Turkish leaders will also always wait for their followers to enter close embrace of their own accord, and it is common for them to give their partners "space" in the dance to improvise interesting rhythmic sections).

The festival circuit is a bit of a different ecosystem, and those dancers are much more likely to prefer a close embrace, but generally have a higher level and are more skilled at adapting to different styles. Also, Berlin has a huge number of expat dancers from Italy and Spain who have no allergy to dancing close.

Note: Keep in mind that tango tourists make up a very significant number of dancers at BA milongas, so from videos you'll not know if the dancers you're watching are Porteño, or are visiting Russians or Americans.

Maybe some dancers who have also danced at these locales can chime in here...

I have danced in local milongas in all those cities and far more. 95% of my dances are in close embrace no matter where I danced. If Berlin had stood out for its V-hold, it would have left significant impression in my mind. Honestly I don’t recall anything standing out about embrace in Berlin or elsewhere. Or it wasn’t something that left a mark in my mind. Within my limited vocabulary which is more than sufficient for any ronda anywhere, the style/type of embrace and close hold hasn’t been an issue.

The shortcomings according to the level of dancers is uniform, universally. People have similar bad habits and shortcoming in their dancing. The above average dancers everywhere also tend to conform to similar consistency in their skill levels.

It is extremely rare that a follower chose to dance in open hold in any of the cities and towns I visited. And those who did, had skills of advance beginner at most. In my experience irrespective of age, size, shape, height, and figure, the followers overwhelmingly preferred close embrace. Perhaps I am not as sensitive to the style of embrace and close hold position. I have my preference but the connection and chemistry with the partner for the duration of the tanda takes far higher precedence than which style of embrace we are dancing in. Partner’s competency in dancing plays a big part as well.

It is also possible that the followers can sense the level of confidence a leader is projecting when the followers decide how close of an embrace they are willing to enter. Or they have already seen him/her dance with other followers. My other experience that does happen is that within a few bars of start of a dance, the follower will slide up closer on her own violation for a full on embrace with her left hand wrapping around. My guess is in that instance some judgement is being made on how much trust they can place in the leader’s ability to lead and keep them safe in the ronda.

I believe tango is an universal language. If you are a competent dancer in a metro with a good/big scene, you will likely not have any issues dancing anywhere else in the world. Therefore I won’t expect average or above average dancers from places like Seattle, LA, Portland, Chicago, NYC, DC, London, Paris. Amsterdam, Belgrade, Milan, Barcelona, Berlin, Istanbul, Warsaw, Vienna, Moscow, Kyiv, Tokyo, Seoul, etc to have any challenge dancing anywhere.

 

[noobster]

It is also possible that the followers can sense the level of confidence a leader is projecting when the followers decide how close of an embrace they are willing to enter. Or they have already seen him/her dance with other followers. My other experience that does happen is that within a few bars of start of a dance, the follower will slide up closer on her own volition for a full on embrace with her left hand wrapping around. My guess is in that instance some judgement is being made on how much trust they can place in the leader’s ability to lead and keep them safe in the ronda.

Definitely. In theory it may be 'up to the follower to set the distance' but in practice some leaders have an aura that invites close embrace and others have a bit of a more formal/distant feel. I feel very comfortable initiating close embrace with a leader who welcomes me in. I'm not going to smoosh myself up against someone who isn't sending out that vibe. I don't choose the embrace in a vacuum; it's rather that I follow his cues.

The fact that you have 95% of your dances in close embrace doesn't mean that 95% of all dances in general take place in close embrace. It probably means you send out CE vibes.

 

[Bailango]

doesn't mean that 95% of all dances in general take place in close embrace. It probably means you send out CE vibes.

Of course not! You can witness it in the plain sight of the ronda that significant number of pairs don’t embrace close embrace I don’t know what vibes I send out. I grew up in the Tango scene dancing close embrace. The open hold was associated more with the neuvo crowd.

 

[John Doe]

the neuvo crowd.

Another scene Berlin is known for.