Getting Americans into Ballroom/Latin and then Competing

Warren J. Dew said:
I have. We don't see it often on dance related fora, but that's presumably because people rarely put their dancing above their spouse: if they find something else that doesn't cause harm to their relationship, we never hear of them.
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Oh... I had meant to refer specifically to cases where a dancer tells their spouse that they don't want them to dance. Sorry that wasn't clear.
 
Franz Jostopovich said:
I'm only 5.5" without shoes & 140, so after girls put on their 3" heels next to me, they usually say something about it. There are fewer guys available from what I hear, so it was discouraging when I'd be passed up even though I was spending a lot of my own time & money to train. I was spending $40 per lesson once a week & practicing 10 hrs a week with them. I've been dancing for about 4 years now. Yes you're right about the thing with them expecting me to be a stronger dancer than them for them to ride on. I guess that's what I meant by the instructor comment.

I used to compromise & do comps with partners if they would do show dance routines with me. But they kept putting off the shows in lieu of their own goals. I realized we were holding each other back & after a few partners in this situation, I stopped trying to make deals. Now I train with non ballroom dancers who are performances artists from different backgrounds ie; acrobats, jazz dancers & even non dancers. I'm much happier now. I don't consider myself a social dancer, though I do go out maybe once almost every month & I'm not a competitor. So that puts me in a smaller percentile of the ballroom community, in between the 2 majorities.

Anyway, as the post asked about Americans, which I am... These would have been some reasons that might have made me reluctant to get into ballroom if I'd know in advance that being in the game of it was almost more difficult than learning the dances. As for why I don't compete, I don't like to see people lose. Especially if they've invested so much of themselves.

For American men, maybe they're too fixed on the pre conceived notions of masculinity. For women freestyle is enough & ballroom isn't something they can use in clubs for the most part. Or for the money, there are other things they'd rather do.
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As a fellow short guy, I can sympathize with getting passed over because of your height, but if it makes you feel better it was probably for functional reasons in addition to the aesthetic (a partnership with a less than ideal height difference requires adjustments from both parties to make it really work).

I'm sorry to hear that you had such bad luck finding partners who had goals similar to your own (though in my experience training for a comp has been phenomenal prep for any show dancing I've done, so I'm sure it wasn't wasted time).

There's nothing wrong with sharing your own personal experience as your own personal experience, but when you (probably accidentally) project your own personal experience as though it's representative of an entire population, you get in trouble. Just as I'm sure lioness wouldn't claim that her personal experience / relationship to dance is shared by all Australian women (for example), you shouldn't (intentionally or not) imply that your experience necessarily typifies that of all males in America.

Which brings me to your last paragraph; the key assumptions to make your statements true would be: 1) all American men are inherently uncomfortable in their masculinity and others' perception of it (patently false for many men I've encountered) and 2) all women are interested in going to clubs and learning how to dance better in the club (certainly not true; I have as many friends who hate clubbing as love it). Both are pretty sweeping assumptions, and therefore likely to get you in trouble when you encounter someone who feels offended by your sweeping generalization.

Back to the topic of the thread, I think (like many suggested beforehand) that some sort of low-stakes way for people to try competing who already enjoy ballroom and are looking for a direction to channel their energies would be a huge boost for interest in ballroom comps. Having a more social atmosphere like is present on a lot of collegiate teams could also be a great way to build and sustain more interest (example: group goes out for dinner or drinks occasionally after social or group class and everyone makes sure to invite newcomers to the group to join in on the fun).
 
Franz Jostopovich said:
I'm entitled to my own feelings & if I'm not allowed to express them too, then you have the power to delete the comment you don't like, you're both moderators.

I used to compromise & do comps with partners if they would do show dance routines with me. But they kept putting off the shows in lieu of their own goals. I realized we were holding each other back & after a few partners in this situation, I stopped trying to make deals. Now I train with non ballroom dancers who are performances artists from different backgrounds ie; acrobats, jazz dancers & even non dancers. I'm much happier now. I don't consider myself a social dancer, though I do go out maybe once almost every month & I'm not a competitor. So that puts me in a smaller percentile of the ballroom community, in between the 2 majorities.

These would have been some reasons that might have made me reluctant to get into ballroom if I'd know in advance that being in the game of it was almost more difficult than learning the dances. As for why I don't compete, I don't like to see people lose. Especially if they've invested so much of themselves.

For American men, maybe they're too fixed on the pre conceived notions of masculinity. For women freestyle is enough & ballroom isn't something they can use in clubs for the most part. Or for the money, there are other things they'd rather do.
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Unfortunately, human nature is such that everyone is self-centered (pretty much by definition) and bases his/her viewpoint as the legitimate perspective on such things as what's proper, uncomfortable, inflammatory, cooperative, adversarial, etc., when in many and maybe most cases, these viewpoints are not even the majority view. One of the good things about partner dancing, for those who realize it, is that the interaction components of dancing (actual dancing, learning, teaching, verbal or written discussions about it) open up our eyes to the possibility that other viewpoints are just as valid as ours.

Good that you've found, at least for now, what you want out of dancing.

Life is a game. Many people in dance are less invested in good dancing itself than the hoopla or politics surrounding it. While this gaming thing seems a natural arena for professionals whose livelihoods/incomes depend on it, one wonders why amateurs are so much into this for something that should just be a "hobby." A lot of the gaming manifest in cliquishness (so perhaps it's really some inferiority complexes at work). For many people, the games are enough turn-offs that they leave dancing, or some aspects of it.

While the Ballroom industry "saved" itself by introducing competitions and pro-am decades ago, I wonder if this strategy will continue to work in the future. When DWTS and SYTYCD dance started, there may have been a surge of interest in partner dancing, but novelties wear off.
 
Dancing Irishman said:
There's nothing wrong with sharing your own personal experience as your own personal experience, but when you (probably accidentally) project your own personal experience as though it's representative of an entire population, you get in trouble. Just as I'm sure lioness wouldn't claim that her personal experience / relationship to dance is shared by all Australian women (for example), you shouldn't (intentionally or not) imply that your experience necessarily typifies that of all males in America.
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Do we really need to preface every paragraph with "in my opinion" or "in my experience" or "i feel" or "i suppose" or some such. I think Web posting implies this.

There is a saying that goes "my opinion is _my_ opinion, and my opinion can't be wrong." (as long as it's not really nasty) It's perfectly fine to concur or dispute someone's opinion with a different opinion, and many of us use these other inputs to gauge our own thinking. It's also perfectly fine to change one's opinion (perhaps based on inputs from others), as we are not politicians who have to cover our a**es.
 
actually, when folks omit those qualifiers, it often implies that they think they are making a statement of fact ...which can cause needless conflicts online...so, you can do what you will, but there will be a corresponding consequence/response ...most of us around here use those qualifiers as an acknowlegement that our perspective is limited to our experience...it is a matter of respect...you don't have to use it ...but others will and, IME, that is a good thing...now...let's get back on topic or move to something else that IS on topic...and that is a moderator note
 
Disclaimer:
I hereby state that anything I of sound mind & body post is not expressly representative of any individual save myself. The commentary written is for entertainment purposes only & examples do not reflect any person living or deceased. Thank you-
 
Partner Dancer said:
Do we really need to preface every paragraph with "in my opinion" or "in my experience" or "i feel" or "i suppose" or some such. I think Web posting implies this.

There is a saying that goes "my opinion is _my_ opinion, and my opinion can't be wrong." (as long as it's not really nasty) It's perfectly fine to concur or dispute someone's opinion with a different opinion, and many of us use these other inputs to gauge our own thinking. It's also perfectly fine to change one's opinion (perhaps based on inputs from others), as we are not politicians who have to cover our a**es.
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Thank you! I thought that's what conversations & forums were for.
 
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Dancingirishman:

I wasn’t projecting anything. Common sense is that when someone speaks, it’s their opinion & how they see things. It doesn’t mean it’s true for someone who disagrees. There is no true or false, everything is perception. I’m not in trouble & it’s certainly not your place to say otherwise or such a thing to anyone else. Do most north American dance ballroom, yes or no? What percentage do? Certainly not the majority, otherwise there wouldn’t be threads on this forum like “why don’t guys dance?” Look that one up & then go outside of the ballroom studio into the outside world & ask average guys, not your friends & in person & then let’s talk. Go into pubs & football, rugby & boxing/mma matches & ask them.

I wasn’t talking about men you’ve encountered, so I’m not wrong. I was talking about the one’s I’ve encountered in the areas surrounding Hollywood California. If you don’t live here, then how do you know I’m wrong? Where I live I go into bars & clubs, they’re packed with young chicks. I go into a ballroom & there’s 1% of what’s in the club capacity. I’m not bashing it, but you don’t even have to count, it’s as clear as day.

I’ve encountered your rebuttals elsewhere on the forum, since you obviously stand against my shared opinions which I’m not alone in, read around & you’ll see this. Perhaps there’s no need for you to quote me any further. Happy dancing to you-
 
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Maybe people could copy what's done in WCS and lindy scenes, have jack and jill competitions to get people competing in an easy way. You can't even sign up with a partner for those so there's obviously no preparation needed in terms of having a routine or anything.

Jack and jills are the only competitions I've ever taken part in, in part because they are fun and relaxed most of the time.

Of course that implies that it would be easier for people to social dance in a competition with an unknown partner than it would be to have a routine prepared with a partner. For me the former is true but that might be an artifact of the dances I do and the culture around them.
 
cornutt said:
You have video from that? Wow. Anyway, I wasn't really addressing people like you; I was more talking about the people who come in and, from a cold start, want to be dancing Champ-level in a year. Now it's not impossible, but... let's just say that, for a lot of them, their goals are unrealistic.
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That's cool. I've certainly known people like that, and I hear you.

And yes, I really do have video from that - taken by Elvie at that, may he rest in peace. Sadly, my camera died after the first dance, so all I have is a single video of me dancing american rumba. I very much wish I had some of me dancing smooth at that comp. Still, the rumba video is ... illustrative.
 
Franz Jostopovich said:
Dancingirishman:

I wasn’t projecting anything. Common sense is that when someone speaks, it’s their opinion & how they see things. It doesn’t mean it’s true for someone who disagrees. There is no true or false, everything is perception.

I wasn’t talking about men you’ve encountered, so I’m not wrong. I was talking about the one’s I’ve encountered in the areas surrounding Hollywood California. If you don’t live here, then how do you know I’m wrong? Where I live I go into bars & clubs, they’re packed with young chicks. I go into a ballroom & there’s 1% of what’s in the club capacity. I’m not bashing it, but you don’t even have to count, it’s as clear as day.
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It's amazing how in the pursuit of political correctness, people don't even use common sense and wisdom any more. Thanks for re-stating and clarifying the "obvious."

One of the major positive side effects of dance, for those who realize it, directly plays on this perception thing. If one takes enough lessons from different instructors/coaches, one may come to the realization that they all have different takes in some aspect of dancing, in this or that. Good instructors will usually make it clear to students that this is the way _I_ do/like it, without discrediting their peers or the opinions of their peer, letting the student's perception of "merit" or "appropriateness" to eventually choose. Some instructors would give the impression that their way is the only way, or the only superior way.

Careful how you word things, in the name of PC. Your use of "young chick" may offend some readers, many who may not even belong to that group, so tread lightly. I wonder if most young women, and in what demographics, are really offended.

Disclaimer: My writings are my opinions and may or may not reflect that of others.
 
Laura said:
However, this doesn't even begin to touch the question of how to get people who are social dancing to try competition, let alone how to get more people dancing Ballroom/Latin in the first place.
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I'm not convinced that it's possible to get a higher percentage of social dancers to compete because they have no motivation to want to compete. The motivation drops with age so demographically you would have to attract more young dancers and somehow convince them that dance is a competitive sport.

Therefore the only way to get more competition dancers is to grow the number of people who ballroom dance.
 
Generalist said:
I'm not convinced that it's possible to get a higher percentage of social dancers to compete because they have no motivation to want to compete. The motivation drops with age so demographically you would have to attract more young dancers and somehow convince them that dance is a competitive sport.
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I'm unconvinced that it's true that the motivation to compete drops with age. The senior divisions tend to do well enough in terms of entries.
 
motivation to compete rises with age. There are usually many more couples in the older age divisions. In Champ events in Europe, for instance, we have been in events that have vower 200 couples in Senior 2 Standard alone…
 
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