Getting Americans into Ballroom/Latin and then Competing

[JudeMorrigan]

motivation to compete rises with age. There are usually many more couples in the older age divisions. In Champ events in Europe, for instance, we have been in events that have vower 200 couples in Senior 2 Standard alone…

In fairness, I'm not entirely sure that it's motivation rising so much as it is the older competitors' greater resources helping providing opportunity. I mean, here in the States, the collegiate competitions tend to be fairly gigantic. Overall, I'm just not sure there's much correllation between motivation and age at all.

 

[Generalist]

It does seem that a lot of older ladies are motivated to compete but that is in large part because they have a plentiful supply of young male pros. Most older men dance to meet women -- and competition hinders meeting women.

Logistically it doesn't make sense for older men to compete with a partner because he will get stuck dancing with one woman too much. It's monogamy all over again!

There is also a more difficult problem to solve: women feel they dance better with a pro and that helps them look glamorous. An older male will not be able to satisfy the lady's desire to be a princess unless he is many times better than she is, so guess what -- she doesn't want to compete with men her age if they are no more than good social dancers.

The suggestion to have Jack & Jills would solve some of these problems but the established ballroomers aren't going to let it happen. So, nothing is going to change except as baby boomers age there will be more older ladies with expendable income who will hire young pros to compete with. Older men will be shoved aside for competition but they won't care because their goals in dancing are totally different.

Male social dancers do compete -- but the prize is to get the attention of beautiful younger ladies. Trophies aren't near as important!

 

[JudeMorrigan]

I suppose it's appropriate given your username, but those are some wild generalizations you're making there. Counterexamples abound.

 

[Generalist]

I suppose it's appropriate given your username, but those are some wild generalizations you're making there. Counterexamples abound.

Sure there are counterexamples, but most of them are anecdotal.

 

[Bailamosdance]

Actually, the event I described was Am/Am. And I think your remarks are not only generalist, but misogynistic. Cute, but unfounded….

 

[JudeMorrigan]

Sure there are counterexamples, but most of them are anecdotal.

Erm, were you under the impression that you were providing cold, hard data?

Seriously though, much like bailamosdance, I was mostly talking about am-am competitions. (Although the size of the fields in pro-am, particularly on the gentlemen's side of things, increase dramatically with age as well, for what it's worth.) That's the closest thing we've got to non-anecdotal evidence here.

 

[cornutt]

Logistically it doesn't make sense for older men to compete with a partner because he will get stuck dancing with one woman too much. It's monogamy all over again!

I have to admit that both the message and the point of this post completely escapes me. I'm an older man, and I'm already doing monogamy -- 19 years and counting. Picking up chicks isn't why I go dancing. I don't get turned down very often either. And in fact, I've recently done some competing with a woman who is some years younger than me. She doesn't dance with me because we have a "thing". She dances with me because she regards me as a good partner.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

Logistically it doesn't make sense for older men to compete with a partner because he will get stuck dancing with one woman too much. It's monogamy all over again!

Monogamy is great if you've got the right woman!

There is also a more difficult problem to solve: women feel they dance better with a pro and that helps them look glamorous. An older male will not be able to satisfy the lady's desire to be a princess unless he is many times better than she is, so guess what -- she doesn't want to compete with men her age if they are no more than good social dancers.

That doesn't explain the college scene, where women outnumber men even though they are dancing with men at the same experience level.

So, nothing is going to change except as baby boomers age there will be more older ladies with expendable income who will hire young pros to compete with.

Possibly. The boomer generation is not doing as well as the silents retirement wise, though, so there may be more older ladies with less expendable income.

 

[Partner Dancer]

It does seem that a lot of older ladies are motivated to compete but that is in large part because they have a plentiful supply of young male pros. Most older men dance to meet women -- and competition hinders meeting women.

Logistically it doesn't make sense for older men to compete with a partner because he will get stuck dancing with one woman too much. It's monogamy all over again!

There is also a more difficult problem to solve: women feel they dance better with a pro and that helps them look glamorous. An older male will not be able to satisfy the lady's desire to be a princess unless he is many times better than she is, so guess what -- she doesn't want to compete with men her age if they are no more than good social dancers.

The suggestion to have Jack & Jills would solve some of these problems but the established ballroomers aren't going to let it happen. So, nothing is going to change except as baby boomers age there will be more older ladies with expendable income who will hire young pros to compete with. Older men will be shoved aside for competition but they won't care because their goals in dancing are totally different.

Male social dancers do compete -- but the prize is to get the attention of beautiful younger ladies. Trophies aren't near as important!

Interesting analysis, and I tend to think there's a lot of merit in it. Go to any large comp or ballroom studio and the number of male pros (with female ams) far outnumber the number of female pros (with male ams). Years ago, studios used to use young female pros to lure in men into dance, but I don't think this formula works as well these days. My impression is that male ams stayed much shorter with dancing than female ams anyway. The pro-am formula which saved the US ballroom industry decades ago probably helped create/shape this social/cultural condition, for better or worse. The descriptions some others have of older same-aged couples competing together probably refer to am-am comps outside the US, where pro-am is probably not that prevalent/popular.

A lot of other dynamics may be at work as well. For instance, since pros have financial incentive to keep ams dancing with them, they likely will not want the ams dancing with other ams (that would jeopardize the income stream).

Perhaps this is a reflection of the "disposable" society we live (more and more) in anyway, fueled by options that can be "bought." Can't find the right partner or work out the differences... just find the next one. Can't dance with the SO... just find a pro. Can't dance with the same partner for different styles of dances... just find multiple partners.


Disclaimer: My writings are my opinion, and may or may not reflect that of others.

 

[3wishes]

Disclaimer:
I hereby state that anything I of sound mind & body post is not expressly representative of any individual save myself. The commentary written is for entertainment purposes only & examples do not reflect any person living or deceased. Thank you-

lol, wink, snicker.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

A lot of other dynamics may be at work as well. For instance, since pros have financial incentive to keep ams dancing with them, they likely will not want the ams dancing with other ams (that would jeopardize the income stream).

Typically a pro makes just as much money coaching an amateur couple as teaching a pro-am student.

 

[fascination]

It does seem that a lot of older ladies are motivated to compete but that is in large part because they have a plentiful supply of young male pros. Most older men dance to meet women -- and competition hinders meeting women.

Logistically it doesn't make sense for older men to compete with a partner because he will get stuck dancing with one woman too much. It's monogamy all over again!

There is also a more difficult problem to solve: women feel they dance better with a pro and that helps them look glamorous. An older male will not be able to satisfy the lady's desire to be a princess unless he is many times better than she is, so guess what -- she doesn't want to compete with men her age if they are no more than good social dancers.

The suggestion to have Jack & Jills would solve some of these problems but the established ballroomers aren't going to let it happen. So, nothing is going to change except as baby boomers age there will be more older ladies with expendable income who will hire young pros to compete with. Older men will be shoved aside for competition but they won't care because their goals in dancing are totally different.

Male social dancers do compete -- but the prize is to get the attention of beautiful younger ladies. Trophies aren't near as important!

are you you serious?... I have noooooooooooooooooooooo interest in dancing with a male who is significantly younger than myself and I don't believe for a minute that I am in the minority in that view....for numerous reasons...not the least of which is that a younger male cannot do anything to increase my level of glamour, nor is glamour my goal...now, watching a younger male dance ... well, that is fine

 

[fascination]

Typically a pro makes just as much money coaching an amateur couple as teaching a pro-am student.

meh..I know pros who charge more to coach a couple than to teach a lesson with a pro/am student of their own...but that is offset but the increased income that they get from competing with that lady....I could see a pro be underwhelmed by the idea of one of his competitive ladies acquiring an AM partner, unless he knew in advance that it wouldn't lessen her need for his services

 

[JudeMorrigan]

Typically a pro makes just as much money coaching an amateur couple as teaching a pro-am student.

In fairness, the competitions themselves can be a not-entirely-trivial income stream for some pros. That's one thing they'd get from teaching a pro-am student that they wouldn't from coaching an am couple.

That said, there is one thing I have to say. I know that there's a fairly common attitude, not without cause, that students should be fairly cynical about their relationship with their pros. That the relationship is strictly one of business and that the pros are all about the bottom line. Now, that's certainly wiser than assuming the opposite, but I think that in many cases it misses the true mark. For example, I dance both pro-am and am-am. Unfortunately, my am partner has never been willing to travel to Nashville with me for lessons with my pro, so it's very much been a case of pro-am with one instructor and am-am with another.

I found out recently that my am partner is planning on moving in the fall. It would have been very, very easy for my pro to suggest taking this opportunity to double down on my pro-am activities with her. However, she knows that my amateur goals are really important to me. Since she's of the opinion that I need someone who already has a solid background in ballroom as my next am partner, she's actively trying to think of ladies who would be good potential partners for me, and she is NOT limiting her considerations to people in Nashville. In fact, she's named one name to me so far, and while I'm skeptical that the lady in question would be interested (she really is quite a bit better than I am), that partnership would almost certainly spell the end of my pro-am days and due to the logistics of the hypothetical partnership, reduce the number of lessons I wind up taking with my pro.

In short, certainly there are pros out there who are all about their bottom line. But there are some who really care about their students and try very hard to help them meet their goals, no matter what they might be. I'm not sure they always get the credit they deserve.

 

[Terpsichorean Clod]

That doesn't explain the college scene, where women outnumber men even though they are dancing with men at the same experience level.

Depends on which college scene...

just received an email from another follower, inquiring about the gender balance in our team's group classes-- because she doesn't want to take another class in which there's a tremendous surplus of leaders. And I must marvel that 1) I really do live in a place where there are more males taking dance classes than females; and 2) girls are *complaining* about it.