Getting Americans into Ballroom/Latin and then Competing

[Franz Jostopovich]

I agree with member Generalist on post #152. I posted something similar a page or so ago. I also agree with member: Partner Dancer on his post #159.

Please note:
The following statements are NOT in regard to serious male or female competitors or dancers who make dance their life's goal.

In reply to pro/am & am/am enrollments:
In MY humblest of opinion, this is more likely about part time am/am amateurs who have outside priorities over their dancing. Also, the casual pro/am students who are persuaded by their franchise teaches who makes a commission to rack up the entries each comp. They can be friendly too, but they usually have pressure from the franchisee/employer to increase entries or have their bookings put on other teachers who sold more as repercussion. I'm talking from MY personal experience. Some indie teachers might be a tad more about making their students happy, unless they're drill sergeants or gold diggers.

In reply to dancing for dates:
From my interpretation on what I've learned in college, Freud would say that it's the super-ego suppressing the I.D. when one performs publicly with a platonic intention. That if it were simply about the isolated joy of a function, it would be sufficiently done in solitude. Though as soon as one feels compelled to display something publicly, especially a sexually provocative act that it is to satiate the ulterior motives of one's I.D. disguised as pretend by the ego conforming to societal restriction.

In reply to females desiring stronger male dancers:
In my humblest of opinion, the submissive type female will desire the alpha male. In an effort to attain higher status they will rely on a "catch" who displays recognized high status. This is sometimes referred to in the urban dictionary as "coat tailing". Pop culture examples of this would be: Courtney Love/Curt Cobain, Yoko Ono/John Lennon, Nicole Kidman/Tom Cruise, etc...

There are other theories anyone else might have which they're totally welcome to. But that's the way I interpreted the Generalists post. That's not to say that's what he literally meant in his own words/opinion which may or may not very likely be different.

 

[Partner Dancer]

Typically a pro makes just as much money coaching an amateur couple as teaching a pro-am student.

The numbers are not usually that simple.

Even if a pro charged a little more to teach an am-am couple verses a pro-am partner (which is actually topsy-turvy since dancing with an am in a private lesson is more physical labor/work than just directing a couple), the income from am-am would not be close to that from pro-am. An am-am couple would not need the pro to practice while the pro-am partner (who has no am partner) would rely solely on the pro for practice, hence paying for more lessons. Something like 1 lesson for the am-am couple for every 3 lessons for the pro-am partner would be a reasonable estimate. If both parters of the am-am couple danced at the studio and never got together, then another pro at that studio would derive even more pro-am income. Plus, as others have mentioned, there is substantial income the pro(s) derives from entering comps with an am... plus bonus like top teacher/studio monetary awards.

I'm by no means against pro-am, as it has kept ballroom dancing alive and instructors and studio owners/managers, etc., need to make a living. I've also contributed plenty into the system and have many friends who have been in it for decades. There are many advantages of dancing with pros, such as having generally a more "dependendable" or "knowledgeable" partner, having to worry less about comp schedules/logistics (in chain studio comps), etc.. Dancers just have to work within their own budgets.


Disclaimer: My writings are my opinion, which may or may not reflect that of others.

 

[Partner Dancer]

are you you serious?... I have noooooooooooooooooooooo interest in dancing with a male who is significantly younger than myself and I don't believe for a minute that I am in the minority in that view....for numerous reasons...not the least of which is that a younger male cannot do anything to increase my level of glamour, nor is glamour my goal...now, watching a younger male dance ... well, that is fine

Sometimes, it's not even an option for the am, as studios "pass down" students from "older" instructors to younger ones because the older instructors (often owners) move more into just managing/coaching or out of the studio/business. It's incredible hard work to do 200+ entries at comps, plus near 40 hours of pro-am teaching per week, and the younger instructors are much better equipped to handle this rigor.


Disclaimer: My writings are my opinion, which may or may not reflect that of others.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

The numbers are not usually that simple.

Even if a pro charged a little more to teach an am-am couple verses a pro-am partner (which is actually topsy-turvy since dancing with an am in a private lesson is more physical labor/work than just directing a couple), the income from am-am would not be close to that from pro-am. An am-am couple would not need the pro to practice while the pro-am partner (who has no am partner) would rely solely on the pro for practice, hence paying for more lessons. Something like 1 lesson for the am-am couple for every 3 lessons for the pro-am partner would be a reasonable estimate.

That doesn't seem to be how it works out in reality.

In reality, most competitors take as many lessons as they can afford, whether pro-am or amateur. An amateur couple often has two incomes and takes more lessons than either one of them would as a pro-am student - sometimes more than both of them would together, since they can sometimes share travel and hotel expenses, and thus have more to spend on lessons.

Plus, as others have mentioned, there is substantial income the pro(s) derives from entering comps with an am... plus bonus like top teacher/studio monetary awards.

Keep in mind that much of the money the student pays to a pro-am instructor to go to a competition is in turn paid to the competition; the instructor doesn't get to keep all the money. Also, the instructor has his own competition travel and lodging expenses to pay. The people winning "top teacher" are probably making more per day at a competition than on a normal teaching day, but many of the instructors are making less at the competition than from the teaching day.

 

[Joe]

From my interpretation on what I've learned in college, Freud would say that it's the super-ego suppressing the I.D.

What does "I.D." stand for?

 

[fascination]

Sometimes, it's not even an option for the am, as studios "pass down" students from "older" instructors to younger ones because the older instructors (often owners) move more into just managing/coaching or out of the studio/business. It's incredible hard work to do 200+ entries at comps, plus near 40 hours of pro-am teaching per week, and the younger instructors are much better equipped to handle this rigor.


Disclaimer: My writings are my opinion, which may or may not reflect that of others.

every woman has a choice about who they dance with....every pro has a choice as to what their body can sustain

 

[Partner Dancer]

In reality, most competitors take as many lessons as they can afford, whether pro-am or amateur. An amateur couple often has two incomes and takes more lessons than either one of them would as a pro-am student - sometimes more than both of them would together, since they can sometimes share travel and hotel expenses, and thus have more to spend on lessons.


Keep in mind that much of the money the student pays to a pro-am instructor to go to a competition is in turn paid to the competition; the instructor doesn't get to keep all the money. Also, the instructor has his own competition travel and lodging expenses to pay. The people winning "top teacher" are probably making more per day at a competition than on a normal teaching day, but many of the instructors are making less at the competition than from the teaching day.

You must be thinking of or know the rare dancer for whom money is no object and can afford to throw "extra" money at pros, especially in this economy. It's not as if any pro/coach is an infinite stream of knowledge/wisdom such that taking more and more lessons keeps improving the dancing. In a 45 minute lesson, 10 minutes of useful "information" would be tremendous. The am-am couple would be able to get the lesson-to-practice ratio to a "reasonable" level, say 1-hour-for-5 while the am-only dancer cannot. Furthermore, am-am dancers often go to other pros/coaches if they had "extra" money, to both get "new" information/perspective or to satisfy the get-to-know-the-judges-by-taking-coaching way of improving their chances in comps.

Most of the dancers I know are very thrifty about finances these days, more than ever, to save for retirement, family, school, or what have you. The primary objective the dancers I know (or see in want ads) have in looking for am partners is to improve dancing or advance in comps while not bleeding cash.

Instructors do comps as any business people earn their living. If it's not worthwhile to sell the product, then they don't. If an instructor can't earn "enough" money going to a comp, perhaps counting on many students to defray costs, then he/she won't. Many cancel initial plans when financial objectives can't be met.


Disclaimer: My writings are my opinion, which may or may not reflect that of others.

 

[Social Dancer]

My local chapter likes to put on low-key low cost events to help newcomers to competing get started. However, this doesn't even begin to touch the question of how to get people who are social dancing to try competition, let alone how to get more people dancing Ballroom/Latin in the first place.

Still, going with what I already see and do locally, I have an idea or two.

First off, to walk in the door to compete -- except at a college competition -- requires a membership outlay of either $30 for the NDCA or $60 for USA Dance. And that's on top of entry fees and tickets. Here's an idea:
Why not waive the membership requirements for people entering only Newcomer-level events?

Second, is there a way to invite social dancers to compete? What about having a series of "thinking about competing?" workshops around the US, aimed at existing social dancers, that would answer their questions, give them helpful tips, and most of all let them know they don't have to look like or dance like the pros to do a Newcomer event? Combine that with my first suggestion, and it might be a way to encourage people to get their feet wet.

Coming from Social Dancing I have a little different point of view than most here might have.

When I started dancing most people still learned from friends and family or from some untrained instructor who
taught in a local Elementary School. (You could take lessons in a school that was located no more than two or
three miles from your home, and it would cost you very little.)

We learned very poor posture and frame. No figure was taught well. All that we were asked to do was to move
with the music and not run into each other very often. Not long after that the more advanced dance instructors
began to make fun of how we danced and in time, people no longer wanted to take lessons from untrained instructors.

Worse for the non-professionals was the fact that better trained Coaches began to look for the better social
dancers and when the better dancers left,,, the rest of us didn't have anyone to look to for help.

None of this would matter if it actually made things better for the Professional Instructors. (BUT DID IT?)

Now all of these feed lines are gone so there is no longer anyone to recruit from the Social Dance world.

If low level very easy dancing was still easy to find, there would once again be hundreds of thousands of very
poor dancers dancing for fun and relaxation.

What the top Coaches don't seem to understand is that if left to their own devices, a small percentage of
these poor dancers would one day get bored and come to them for lessons. Yes, you would have to completely
retrain them from scratch. Yes, they would have to relearn every step they were ever taught. Yes, they would
have to learn how to start their Cha on the Two beat.

But isn't that just more money in your pocket?

The best thing for Ballroom Dancing, and I mean everyone who loves the dance, is to have a huge pool of
poor dancers who dance just for fun and who have no intention of ever competing with anyone.

The best way for that to happen would be for the top people to show respect and to actually encourage
anyone who wanted to teach for low or no pay to go ahead and do it.

The old KISS rule applies here. Keep it simple stupid!! Make dancing so easy that anyone can do it. Make it
fun and exciting and romantic and you will see more people rushing to your doors.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

It's not as if any pro/coach is an infinite stream of knowledge/wisdom such that taking more and more lessons keeps improving the dancing.

Students, however, have an infinite stream of errors that need correcting.

Instructors do comps as any business people earn their living. If it's not worthwhile to sell the product, then they don't. If an instructor can't earn "enough" money going to a comp, perhaps counting on many students to defray costs, then he/she won't. Many cancel initial plans when financial objectives can't be met.

Businesses participate in some activities in order to keep their customers happy even if those activities individually lose money. For pro-am instructors, that sometimes includes going to competitions that, accounting for opportunity costs, they lose money on, so that their students have an opportunity to compete and they can keep those students in the long term.

 

[Partner Dancer]

Students, however, have an infinite stream of errors that need correcting.


Businesses participate in some activities in order to keep their customers happy even if those activities individually lose money. For pro-am instructors, that sometimes includes going to competitions that, accounting for opportunity costs, they lose money on, so that their students have an opportunity to compete and they can keep those students in the long term.

Grasping for straws?

One man's deficiency/error is another man's feature/refinement, especially in dance. Take enough lessons from enough instructors, and one may come to the conclusion that there are as many ways of doing something as there are instructors (when coming to microscopic details). If you paid me $150/45min, I'd find flaws in your statements/positions/arguments (or even dancing) forever as well (without even ever having see you dance!!!).

Someone who has high-school (or less) business knowledge knows about loss-leaders. Businesses are not like the government, and can only sustain (very) short-term activities in the red (unless they are a front for the mob or other businesses, where "laundering" is the real business). Many studios and comps/events have closed down after one or a few seasons in the red.

 

[vit]

Take enough lessons from enough instructors, and one may come to the conclusion that there are as many ways of doing something as there are instructors (when coming to microscopic details). If you paid me $150/45min, I'd find flaws in your statements/positions/arguments (or even dancing) forever as well (without even ever having see you dance!!!).

This is very true. However, if you are a competitive dancer, money given to instructor A will have positive effects on your results, while similar amount of money given to instructor B won't, despite the fact that they both can be finding flaws in your dancing forever. So you will see who is of value and who is a bluffer. And even if you are a social dancer, you may find similar effect, measured by percentage of girls that like dancing with you socially

 

[middy]

What does "I.D." stand for?

Pretty sure it's just "id"...

 

[fascination]

id...as in id, ego, and superego

 

[Partner Dancer]

This is very true. However, if you are a competitive dancer, money given to instructor A will have positive effects on your results, while similar amount of money given to instructor B won't, despite the fact that they both can be finding flaws in your dancing forever. So you will see who is of value and who is a bluffer. And even if you are a social dancer, you may find similar effect, measured by percentage of girls that like dancing with you socially

Why don't we just forego the middle man and horse and pony show in comps and just do the payola directly to the judges?

Perhaps same for social dancing. They used to have taxi dancers, didn't they? They do already have the hired gun pros in dance in some regions.


Disclaimer: My writings are my opinion and may or may not reflect that of others.

 

[vit]

Why don't we just forego the middle man and horse and pony show in comps and just do the payola directly to the judges?

That's how it works in my area - it's frequently the same person, due to small number of trainers and adjudicators so competitions are mostly for the public (consisting mostly of the parents, except on the national championship where there are also some outsiders). Well, it's not really like that, but not much different either ...