Has Tango Mundial been over all positive for spread of tango Internationally

[fiesta0618]

...even if most non-tango dancers seem to think the entire tango world is about competitions!

Sounds familiar!

But anyway, just popping in to give my two cents on how competition works as a marketing and recruiting tool generally. I don't compete in AT, but I've competed seriously in dozens of activities over my life, and there are definite patterns that I would expect to hold true here as well.

The main pattern that I've seen has to do with the identity and behavior of spectators. There are generally two kinds of people who watch an amateur competition: the junkies who just can't get enough, and the competitors' friends and family cheering them on. The former group has already been recruited, so there's no need to market to them. The latter group already has significant awareness, and generally have already resisted recruitment--they are solely there to support a loved one.

There is a tiny slice of the second group that is different, I should say. A friend or family member to whom a competitor says, "come watch this, see if you like it, I think it's perfect for you," but there are so few of those as a proportion of the crowd that their number rounds to zero.

Conspicuously missing from this analysis? Curious strangers showing up from off the street. Doesn't happen.

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Taken together, it seems like amateur competition is pretty worthless as a recruiting tool, right? On the contrary, it is quite effective! Why the apparent contradiction? Because we now live in a world of YouTube. Look no further than several of the posts in this thread.

Competitions produce a ton of interesting topical content, and tend to showcase high-quality skills in a high-excitement environment. So once a stranger finally encounters the activity somehow, they go to the internet to learn more, and the long history of competition content becomes an ocean they can dive into and get hooked.

Of course, that means that overcoming that initial barrier of ignorance is still unaddressed. Competition alone doesn't help with that at all. But I would agree with others who talk about television shows and the general broader dispersion of experts as helpful for that, and competition is an indirect driver of both of those things.

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Unaddressed in this conversation and analysis is rumination on what it costs non-competitors to share a cultural space with competitors. It is absolutely non-trivial and non-zero. But that's maybe a discussion for another thread.

 

[Brummbaer]

I doubt that anybody who's at the level where they can plausibly compete isn't already a tango addict, so that rate is probably very close to 0.

Maybe - but there are many in these competitions who are 'also rans'. Of three I was aware of over many years, they've all gone to other jobs to pay the rental. No longer in the tango scene.

But I guess the Mundial is a better CV 'qualification', and traceable, than some others which were promoted some years ago.

I mean, what do you do after you've spent all that time (and money! Lessons, travel, accommodation, clothes, etc). That applies to many 'sports'! You, or parents, have got to have the wherewithal to pursue that dream. I've met some sofa-surfing through Europe, and those sleeping in a car because teaching doesn't pay enough. You either get back to your original 'career', if possible, or find something (hairdressing, beauty, wellness...) that pays the rent.

The recurring theme here is "local."

I accept that in a metropolis. Outside there are either insufficient numbers or insufficient initiative.

 

[Brummbaer]

The main pattern that I've seen has to do with the identity and behavior of spectators. There are generally two kinds of people who watch an amateur competition: the junkies who just can't get enough, and the competitors' friends and family cheering them on. The former group has already been recruited, so there's no need to market to them. The latter group already has significant awareness, and generally have already resisted recruitment--they are solely there to support a loved one.

There are new, emerging, groups: the couch potatoes who wish to be entertained. Sort of like the Hunger Games thesis. Maybe the TV audience fits that category. Sure, in the early days some tried things out, but, for multiple reasons (age, skills, free time, fitness, costs...) gave up.

Taken together, it seems like amateur competition is pretty worthless as a recruiting tool, right? On the contrary, it is quite effective! Why the apparent contradiction? Because we now live in a world of YouTube. Look no further than several of the posts in this thread.

Competitions produce a ton of interesting topical content, and tend to showcase high-quality skills in a high-excitement environment. So once a stranger finally encounters the activity somehow, they go to the internet to learn more, and the long history of competition content becomes an ocean they can dive into and get hooked.

I'll add another: I guess I don't appreciate competition. I don't have that gene! I don't have a need prove myself 'better', and by implication someone else to 'lose', to justify myself (that doesn't apply to being right about something technical!). But I'd accept that others do. However AT does appear to attract some from a STEM background, who tend towards being nerdy geeks, as well as those linked to 'wellness'. None of that stops wishing, and working, to improve.

 

[JournalInTime]

Maybe - but there are many in these competitions who are 'also rans'. Of three I was aware of over many years, they've all gone to other jobs to pay the rental. No longer in the tango scene.

It seems plausible that some people pin their entire love of tango to winning a competition, and if they lose enough, quit tango. I just haven't encountered this. What I have encountered are people who've lost a lot, stopped competing, but kept on dancing socially with a very low profile: just another couple at their favorite local milonga(s). I consider them "on the tango scene" even they aren't competing, performing, teaching, or whatever else. Being "on the tango scene" just means you dance tango regularly.

I mean, what do you do after you've spent all that time (and money! Lessons, travel, accommodation, clothes, etc). That applies to many 'sports'! You, or parents, have got to have the wherewithal to pursue that dream. I've met some sofa-surfing through Europe, and those sleeping in a car because teaching doesn't pay enough. You either get back to your original 'career', if possible, or find something (hairdressing, beauty, wellness...) that pays the rent.

Sure, but I wasn't talking about the retention rate of tango competitors as competitors; I was talking about the retention rate of tango dancers who happen to compete as tango dancers. They might regret having poured so many resources into competition, and give up on being "discovered" and building a career on that, but I'm not sure they drop tango rather than become Nameless 1 and Nameless 2 at Local Milonga You've Never Heard Of.

If we're talking about competition affecting the spread of tango, it's unimportant that competitors keep competing and trying to be careerists. All that matters is that they keep dancing.

I accept that in a metropolis. Outside there are either insufficient numbers or insufficient initiative.

As I said earlier, I believe that to first order, tango is a phenomenon of metropolises. It revolves around a big city (BA) with a metro population of almost 17 million. The cities with the largest tango scenes are not small: Berlin, Paris, Seoul, etc. Even my humble city of Montréal has a metro population of over 4 million, and is mostly visited by dancers from NYC (20.1 million metro), DC (6.3 million metro), Toronto (6.2 million metro), and Boston (4.9 million metro).

I focus on metro populations because most people who claim to be from small places are talking about places inside the metro sphere of big places. For instance, I would identify the dancers I know from La Prairie, Brossard, Longueuil, Repentigny, Laval, St-Thérèse, Blainville, Beaconsfield, etc. as "from Montréal." It's hard to say where the line is, but you'd have to be from Sherbrook, Drummondville, Trois-Rivières, or similar before I'd believe you weren't effectively part of the Montréal tango scene.

I'm not sure that all the tango in all the world's hamlets, villages, towns, and small cities outside the orbit of metropolises (that is, in places like my Sherbrook, Drummondville, and Trois-Rivières) adds up to the equivalent of more than one or two metropolises. Even if they do, they're too fractured to have much influence. (They're often chosen by the denizens of metropolises as quaint locations for encuentros, of course, but that just pulls them more into metropolitan orbits.)

 

[tangoing]

I’ve been told from a knowledgeable source that it was originally made to bring in money to argentina, and was wildly successful in doing so. And also (at least in the early years) that it was semi rigged, in the sense that judges were told to let x couple from y country into the finals (or even 2nd / 3rd place etc) so they get representation (to promote and bring in more people from those countries).

 

[fiesta0618]

I'll add another: I guess I don't appreciate competition. I don't have that gene! I don't have a need prove myself 'better', and by implication someone else to 'lose', to justify myself (that doesn't apply to being right about something technical!). But I'd accept that others do.

Tangential, but a favorite hobby horse of mine:

The competitors who last for the long run are not adversarial in the way you imagine. It's not about winning and losing, or proving yourself to someone, or demonstrating superiority. Folks with those motivations burn out in a right hurry (unless they have the sort of generational talent that puts them immediately in the mix for top titles).

The folks who have staying power as competitors are those who do it because it draws out their own best focus and performance. Full stop. The very thing that @JournalInTime noticed about himself when he was press-ganged into that contest.

 

[fiesta0618]

There are new, emerging, groups: the couch potatoes who wish to be entertained. Sort of like the Hunger Games thesis. Maybe the TV audience fits that category. Sure, in the early days some tried things out, but, for multiple reasons (age, skills, free time, fitness, costs...) gave up.

Yes, this is the TV audience you're describing. The people who just wish to be passively entertained are not going to go to the effort to attend an event in person. That's too much work. There are nearly infinite other forms of passive entertainment that don't require them to go anywhere.

 

[Brummbaer]

The competitors who last for the long run are not adversarial in the way you imagine. It's not about winning and losing, or proving yourself to someone, or demonstrating superiority

That may be true in some sports amongst some competitors, but that's not been my observation in similar 'sports' (particularly Russians, or even beating the Russians). Nevertheless what you describe is certainly a movie portrayal.

The folks who have staying power as competitors are those who do it because it draws out their own best focus and performance.

I guess it forms its own 'club' or clique of those who meet up every event. But then detached from the rank-and-file - who can't be drawn in for numerous reasons (typically another league), and maybe just 'support'.

 

[pianistamediano]

I was chatting with one or two Argentinian teachers (in that they've been touring Europe) recently, and the general sentiment I get from them is that the government only really cares about the Mundial when it comes to tango — local tango musicians and milongas receive little to no support, even during Covid times.

There's a vested interest in tango as a UNESCO intangible cultural heritage and as a tool for soft power, but the government doesn't really care about tango as the living, breathing entity that is the milongas, only that it brings foreign money and makes the country look better.

 

[Bailango]

I’ve been told from a knowledgeable source that it was originally made to bring in money to argentina, and was wildly successful in doing so.

That’s true and not a secret. It was started by the govt (still managed I think) to promote tourism which will bring in money. I have lost the number of times Argentina has fallen into economic crisis.

I have not seen figures for how much it adds to local economy. In big ISA metros that hosts large events and conferences there are well defined estimates of how much money gets pumped into local economy. Mundial is far smaller event by comparison. I will really be curious if there are estimates of how economy does in leading up Mundial.

 

[opendoor]

.. It was started by the govt (still managed I think) to promote tourism which will bring in money..

Javier Milei has cut the cultural budget even more than his predecessors. I don't know whether UNESCO funding is still flowing.

..the government only really cares about the Mundial when it comes to tango — local tango musicians and milongas receive little to no support...

At the time, there were loud accusations that the Escenario and Villa Urquiza schools had formed an alliance to divide the pie between themselves. The milonga organizers, the milonguero stylists, and the musicians felt betrayed.

 

[Rabbit]

That’s true and not a secret. It was started by the govt (still managed I think) to promote tourism which will bring in money. I have lost the number of times Argentina has fallen into economic crisis.

I have not seen figures for how much it adds to local economy. In big ISA metros that hosts large events and conferences there are well defined estimates of how much money gets pumped into local economy. Mundial is far smaller event by comparison. I will really be curious if there are estimates of how economy does in leading up Mundial.

I imagine it helps balance the tourism a bit by encouraging some of the tango tourists to come in winter.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Been meaning to drop this little gem from 2006 Tango-L which seemed to me to be the prevailing attitude back when I was first learning AT.

And people wonder why when ballroom types,
after having finally discovered real tango, try
to assimilate us like the Borg and introduce
syllabi and competition to AT, so many of us
respond, "Yeah, over our dead bodies you will.

About that same time there were about 2 dozen posts about "Compeonato Mundail".
Still the old saw that ballroom completes but tango connects, or something similar, is etched in my memory.

Maybe it was a Portland thing?

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Been meaning to drop this little gem from 2006 Tango-L which seemed to me to be the prevailing attitude back when I was first learning AT.

And people wonder why when ballroom types,
after having finally discovered real tango, try
to assimilate us like the Borg and introduce
syllabi and competition to AT, so many of us
respond, "Yeah, over our dead bodies you will.

About that same time there were about 2 dozen posts about "Compeonato Mundail".
Still the old saw that ballroom completes but tango connects, or something similar, is etched in my memory.

Maybe it was a Portland thing?

I don't really know what the consensus is in the B.A. community about the Mundial or, even, in my local community for that matter. I do know that a lot of people I've heard from (mostly online) are not happy about it. Doesn't seem to affect the local community here much though. It seems mostly to be a springboard for teaching and workshops. And through that sort of influence it can be detrimental or beneficial down the line.

 

[tangoing]

I don't really know what the consensus is in the B.A. community about the Mundial or, even, in my local community for that matter. I do know that a lot of people I've heard from (mostly online) are not happy about it. Doesn't seem to affect the local community here much though. It seems mostly to be a springboard for teaching and workshops. And through that sort of influence it can be detrimental or beneficial down the line.

NYC mostly don’t care much about it (otherwise Marcos & Florencia would be way more popular since they’ve been consistent finalists).
The west coast of US cares a lot more actually, since they’ve hosted the national competitions and I constantly hear west coast tango dancers talk about the mundial.