Having problems with my wife dancing with other men

[fiesta0618]

Men get engaged and learn to spend less time going to ball-games and hanging out with the boys. Sometimes they need the prompting of their fiancé. It’s perfectly innocent, and they love it, but that doesn’t mean the good lady can’t be uncomfortable with it - in context.

I would argue this is a rather different situation than what you describe with respect to dance.

"Hanging out with the boys less" is usually not about ceasing to engage in an activity that makes your SO uncomfortable for reasons of morality or propriety. It's a question of not neglecting the relationship, and clearly signaling commitment by prioritizing quality time with your partner.

The analogous complaint in a dance environment would be--as others have already stated--objecting to the amount of time your partner spends dancing without you. As soon as you bring propriety and discomfort with the actual activity into it, it's quite a different situation.

On the other hand, an SO might object to "hanging out with the boys" if those boys engage in behavior that is risky or damaging; like excessive drinking, casual sexism, or fighting (just to choose a few common examples from sporting culture). If this is the nature of your objection to dance, then we are back to the question of whether you find dance inherently immoral, and if so, why. And if you do, don't expect any agreement from this crowd.

 

[TTanguero]

Men get engaged and learn to spend less time going to ball-games and hanging out with the boys. Sometimes they need the prompting of their fiancé. It’s perfectly innocent, and they love it, but that doesn’t mean the good lady can’t be uncomfortable with it - in context.

This is a non-sequitur: you're not uncomfortable with how much time she spends away from you, you're uncomfortable with how she spends that time. You say it's not insecurity but have yet to provide any other explanation.

 

[Teecester]

This is a non-sequitur: you're not uncomfortable with how much time she spends away from you, you're uncomfortable with how she spends that time. You say it's not insecurity but have yet to provide any other explanation.

I cited a generic example to illustrate that people make changes all the time in various aspects. It's nothing to do with me (I'm not engaged), and I don't see how it remotely illustrates anything to do with anyone's insecurity, let alone mine.

Any objective human reading my posts would see that I have asked questions, proposed things that look at things from all aspects, and certainly said nothing remotely toxic or negative -- but it's plainly obvious that a number of you are not reading my words for anything other than to attack. Why?

 

[Teecester]

I would argue this is a rather different situation than what you describe with respect to dance.

"Hanging out with the boys less" is usually not about ceasing to engage in an activity that makes your SO uncomfortable for reasons of morality or propriety. It's a question of not neglecting the relationship, and clearly signaling commitment by prioritizing quality time with your partner.

I know. It was simply the first example or illustration that came to my mind. Bottom line is, give-and-take happens, in many aspects of life within a relationship. People change things, drop things, pick up things - sometimes of their own volition, sometimes at the prompting of others.

The analogous complaint in a dance environment would be--as others have already stated--objecting to the amount of time your partner spends dancing without you. As soon as you bring propriety and discomfort with the actual activity into it, it's quite a different situation.

On the other hand, an SO might object to "hanging out with the boys" if those boys engage in behavior that is risky or damaging; like excessive drinking, casual sexism, or fighting (just to choose a few common examples from sporting culture). If this is the nature of your objection to dance, then we are back to the question of whether you find dance inherently immoral, and if so, why. And if you do, don't expect any agreement from this crowd.

My previous points -- also repeated in response to @Tangogal -- make clear the nature of my discomfort. Would that anyone would read them.

 

[TTanguero]

I don't see how it remotely illustrates anything to do with anyone's insecurity, let alone mine.

Yes, that's clear.

that look at things from all aspects, and certainly said nothing remotely toxic or negative -- but it's plainly obvious that a number of you are not reading my words for anything other than to attack. Why?

Nobody is attacking you, and it's clear that we cannot help you. I wish you (and your partner!) luck.

 

[raindance]

But here’s my take: In a healthy relationship, Person A says to B that s/he is uncomfortable with such-and-such, and here’s why. They discuss, exchange understanding, and in the end, they come to an accommodation. Person A might say, OK honey, I see it your way, and I’m no longer uncomfortable. Or Person B might say, OK honey, I see it your way, I’ll do something else. Or, they might both agree to do something else etc. But it starts with communication.

If that's how the discussion goes, and both are happy with the outcome, then there's no problem, right? Both are happy with each other, and now understand each other, whether the decision was to keep dancing bachata, salsa, argentine tango, waltz, or some other dance, or not. Communication and compromise are healthy parts of a relationship, as long as it's not unbalanced (same person compromising more than the other, etc).

If you know how to get to that place where both people agree on how to handle things and are happy with the final outcome, then what is your question?

When Person A keeps insisting they are uncomfortable, trying to make person B see that they are "wrong," and Person B keeps insisting that they want to continue to do the thing that makes Person A uncomfortable (whether that thing is dancing or anything else), then that is a problem. But it's not a dance problem. It's a relationship problem. A couples counselor might be able to help guide the communication and get the couple to a place of mutual understanding. Or they might decide to break up. Or they might decide to stay together and argue about it and resent each other. (Regarldless of the issue, plenty of people pick staying together and resenting each other, at least for a while! Sigh.)

For a non-dancing, non-sexualized example - I wouldn't be comfortable with my significant other sky diving, drag racing, or being a firefighter. I couldn't handle knowing they were in situations that put their lives at risk all the time, just too much stress for me to live with day to day. The activities are perfectly legitimate for people to pursue, and I don't think most people that do them are reckless or have a death wish, but I know couldn't handle that from a partner. So, I don't date firefighters, drag racers, etc. I also don't go onto firefighting or skydiving forums and try to explain to them that they are doing something wrong by choosing that career or hobby, and what it does or could do to their partners. Hopefully they are smart enough to pick partners that don't object to their risky career or hobby, and hopefully even find a partner that admires that about them. Or a partner that doesn't see it as an issue, at least.

Not sure what else you are looking for from the people responding here.

 

[Teecester]

If that's how the discussion goes, and both are happy with the outcome, then there's no problem, right? Both are happy with each other, and now understand each other, whether the decision was to keep dancing bachata, salsa, argentine tango, waltz, or some other dance, or not. Communication and compromise are healthy parts of a relationship, as long as it's not unbalanced (same person compromising more than the other, etc).

Absolutely. Said so many times.

If you know how to get to that place where both people agree on how to handle things and are happy with the final outcome, then what is your question?

The way my mind works, the "how to get to that place" is with communication and insight and perspective and empathy.

"I'm uncomfortable with X, and see you've discussed that here in the past. I don't quite know how to deal with it, so I will appreciate insights and perspectives that can help me resolve my problem."

For a non-dancing, non-sexualized example - I wouldn't be comfortable with my significant other sky diving, drag racing, or being a firefighter. I couldn't handle knowing they were in situations that put their lives at risk all the time, just too much stress for me to live with day to day. The activities are perfectly legitimate for people to pursue, and I don't think most people that do them are reckless or have a death wish, but I know couldn't handle that from a partner. So, I don't date firefighters, drag racers, etc. I also don't go onto firefighting or skydiving forums and try to explain to them that they are doing something wrong by choosing that career or hobby, and what it does or could do to their partners. Hopefully they are smart enough to pick partners that don't object to their risky career or hobby, and hopefully even find a partner that admires that about them. Or a partner that doesn't see it as an issue, at least.

Again, the way my mind works, I might go to the sky-diving club, read stats of injuries, and/or talk to people e.g. on sky-diving websites - to learn how to deal with it, if I can deal with it.

I don't know if you're referring to me above, but I have not come here and "[tried] to explain to them that they are doing something wrong by choosing that career or hobby, and what it does or could do to their partners". When asked, I have answered with what the issue I have is, or what aspects of close embrace dance with which I am uncomfortable. But I have not framed it as something "wrong" that someone is doing.

 

[raindance]

So what else can we say?

We're not your partner. Many dancers have explained many things about partner dancing that could make you more comfortable.

You're still apparently uncomfortable. More dance info (which is what most dancers posting here will have to offer) isn't going to help you. (More skydiving stats most certainly wouldn't help me. I know my own dealbreakers and I'm OK with them.)

Sounds like you need to do more discussing, communicating and compromising with your significant other. Maybe read this thread together and discuss the various posts from dancers (the ones about how they experience the embrace, and partnering, and how sexuality isn't what's behind most of it), and ask how that compares to how dance is for your partner, etc.

I don't think we can say more to make you comfortable than what has already been posted here. You need to find out more about what dance means to your partner, and whether you can come to a place where you are OK with that.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

This is a non-sequitur: you're not uncomfortable with how much time she spends away from you, you're uncomfortable with how she spends that time. You say it's not insecurity but have yet to provide any other explanation.

I'm really not sure what this thread is about any longer or its relation to tango. We're not doing couples therapy here and the discussion keeps going back and forth over the same territory, about how someone regards their partner dancing tango (or another dance). That question (if it is a question) is really beyond the scope of this forum to resolve. So, I'm not sure what exactly we are discussing here.

 

[Mr. Moustachio]

I'd really like a 5W1H analysis of the actual problem

For non-journalists: Who, what, when, where, why, and how.

 

[Tango Newbie]

C) it's instinctively pleasant to embrace someone you find attractive - I suppose this is where the grey area is for most non-dancers

D) someone is deliberately trying to sexually arouse themselves or their partner - but this is simply harrassment if non-consensual as it would be in any other context

People committed to their relationship won't initiate or accept D, and tend to experience B more than C. Experienced dancers also generally feel less C and more A and B. Although I will say that for myself, C never really goes away completely, I also believe the people-married-for-30-years who say that it does for them.

Being a beginner-to-intermediate dancer myself, you pretty much summarized things fairly accurately and succinctly (in relation to the topic). Well said.

I'm 'okay' with my girlfriend dancing in the CE as long as it follows codigos, etiquette, and done tastefully. And as a dancer, I'm treading lightly into the realm of CE myself so I don't create any concerns, either with my GF, or cause any rumors about me by observers (followers) at practicas and milongas (i.e. "Oh look, he's dancing quite well with that follower who's not his usual dance partner..." Or, "I've never seen him dance so passionately with her..." (another follower who's not my GF). And worse, I don't want any animosity or resentment from my GF if she sees me dancing better, closer, or more intimately and sensually with another follower than I ever have with her. I want my GF to enjoy the best I have to offer first and foremost, and quite frankly I'd be just as happy if she's the only follower I dance with, since there would be no guilt (on my part) and I still get to dance Tango that I'm beginning to like.

Yes, 'Item C' is the major "grey area" and 'elephant-in-the-room" that's most concerning to non-dancers in a relationship.

While we oftentimes find people "attractive", we don't instinctively go on to enjoy long, sensual embraces upon greeting them, especially for many minutes on end (tanda duration), even if they're friends and relatives we haven't seen for a long time, nor would we even consider doing this with co-workers or complete strangers in public.

In fact, if we embraced family and friends (outside the tango community) for long, tanda-long periods, they'd definitely consider it inappropriate, and co-workers and strangers might accuse us of sexual harassment. Sure, tango is an exception since it's part of dancing, and it's implied that CE is warranted as long as it's the mutually agreed-upon method (choice) by both dance partners.

But let's not kid ourselves; many dancers are 'single' who use tango as a way to fill a 'void' in their lives, especially the void of needing a 'hug' and a soft, intimate embrace. There are people who dance tango for the pure physical nature (movement) and joy, and those who need 'pleasurable sensual contact' with another person because they're not getting it elsewhere, (or both).

This is probably the biggest part of the 'grey area' that can be misinterpreted by non-dancers, specifically when a dancer is 'hugging' the body of their loved-on for many minutes (tanda) for 'pleasure' that is usually reserved for committed (romantic) partners. I've said this in other discussions, but there are folks in a relationship who have barriers, for themselves and their partners, and consider certain things 'sacred', including 'sensual feelings' and pleasures shared between two people in a relationship that should not occur with others (strangers). While there are couples who have no problem with their loved one having 'sensual experiences' with others, they are the exception, not the rule.

I have to agree with most of the leaders posting in the discussions who claim they're not thinking of the 'sensual nature' of CE because they're too busy thinking of the next steps. That's me for sure! Conversely, there are many experienced leaders whose next steps come naturally, allowing them to focus on the 'sensual connection' with their followers and giving them and receiving sensual pleasure. The question now becomes; "Are we okay with someone else enjoying our loved-one in a sensual way?" For many, that's a tough question to answer or accept (as in the case of couples struggling with one who dances and the other who doesn't).

Aside from dancing, I can't think of any activity outside of tango (i.e. volleyball, tennis, ultimate Frisbee, golf, pickleball, basket-weaving, Zumba, outrigger canoeing, or sport), where people are hugging, embracing, and enjoying close intimate and sensual body contact with another person and all that goes with it like they do in tango. Even in the 'club scene' (where I got a majority of my dancing experiences) most dancing is done in either an open-embrace or no embrace, with couples on 'date night' the only ones engaged in the CE (aka 'slow dancing'). In fact, most women would not accept a 'slow dance' with a stranger at club. Sure, I get it, we're talking about tango, but there are similarities (more so than compared to the activities described above). Nonetheless, I've never hugged a friend or family member as intimately, sensually, and as long as is done in tango, and I'm sure this goes for most tango dancers.

As for me, I don't have any trust issues in my relationship with my GF, nor her with me. Also, jealousy is not an emotion I suffer from like others do, and don't deal with self-esteem problems and considered self-actualized.

Yes, I had my reservations about another guy (leader) having an intimately 'sensual moment' engaged in the CE with my GF (or vice-versa), but it's not an issue since my GF hasn't been dancing in the CE since we've been together, and has explained her reasonings for dancing tango; how she's "not attracted to any of the leaders" and being an 'exhibitionist "only needs a body to dance around that allows her to display her talents". I will say, I wouldn't be too happy with someone getting their jollies 'hugging' my GF in an overly-sensual way, or getting 'aroused' as described in "D" (or vice versa for that matter).

Without sounding egotistical, let's just say I don't have a problem meeting women, so I'm not someone who's controlling and give my GF all the freedom to make choices. I'm of the opinion that if a woman values our relationship, it's up to them to consider what's appropriate and what is not, and act accordingly.
My two cents (and apologies for being a long reply).

 

[Tango Newbie]

For instance, I dance almost exclusively in a very close hold, a hug, with significant weight-sharing. When you see me dancing with women, their entire torso – breasts and all – is pressed against mine, with no space for a sheet of paper between us. I embrace low, so my right arm is more or less around the waist, just above the line of the buttocks. I prefer partners who embrace high, with their hand on the back of my neck. I lead lots of wraps, ganchos, and other entanglements, which at that distance can get high and close enough that there's brief contact between legs and groins.

So, is that a sexualized dance? I WOULD have to say so, especially when there's close contact in between legs and groins.

For 'single' dancers (without a loved-one) it isn't inappropriate, but for coupled-dancers, in my book that's 'pushing-the-envelope' a little far. Although I've had my GF do leg wraps, as did a fellow student (follower) in a class, I'm not at the point of doing any moves or embellishments where my groin is contacting my follower (even with my GF). And quite frankly, knowing her, I suspect my 'experienced' GF probably wouldn't appreciate me doing moves that involves any 'groin contact' with any other follower. My two cents for what it's worth.

 

[TTanguero]

I'm really not sure what this thread is about any longer or its relation to tango. We're not doing couples therapy here and the discussion keeps going back and forth over the same territory, about how someone regards their partner dancing tango (or another dance). That question (if it is a question) is really beyond the scope of this forum to resolve.

Yeah, I agree. Both this and the other similar thread need the parties concerned to sit down and talk to their partner and/or a couples counsellor rather than dancers. We've done all we can do here.

 

[Rabbit]

I'm 'okay' with my girlfriend dancing in the CE as long as it follows codigos, etiquette, and done tastefully. And as a dancer, I'm treading lightly into the realm of CE myself so I don't create any concerns, either with my GF, or cause any rumors about me by observers (followers) at practicas and milongas (i.e. "Oh look, he's dancing quite well with that follower who's not his usual dance partner..." Or, "I've never seen him dance so passionately with her..." (another follower who's not my GF).

You don't need to second guess your dancing, because that doesn't happen. It's actually behaviour off the dance floor that causes rumours.

I have to agree with most of the leaders posting in the discussions who claim they're not thinking of the 'sensual nature' of CE because they're too busy thinking of the next steps. That's me for sure! Conversely, there are many experienced leaders whose next steps come naturally, allowing them to focus on the 'sensual connection' with their followers and giving them and receiving sensual pleasure. The question now becomes; "Are we okay with someone else enjoying our loved-one in a sensual way?" For many, that's a tough question to answer or accept (as in the case of couples struggling with one who dances and the other who doesn't).

Yes, but we have to recognise that there's a wide spectrum of attitudes - anywhere between people who are not happy with their partner showing their face in public to people who are ok with both partners having sex with other people.

The dancers are generally ok with touch that isn't escalating towards sex. (There are also many experienced dancers who are more concerned about how they look or interpret the music than any sort of sensuality.) You might find that your own perspective and attitude changes as you dance more.

 

[itwillhappen]

It's a question of degree, and of individual feelings of propriety. That's what I've been exploring, and why I'm trying to deepen my understanding. Now, I realise this thread was originally about TA, and I have no knowledge of that particular dance and how much it fires up that sense of propriety in dancers and their SOs.

I just stumbled upon a video on fb that shows the optimum for my taste. Unfortunately (especially for my dance partners) I am nowhere near as good at dancing as these two and I don't perform, so I prefer mostly close embrace.

️Valeria Solomonoff & Iakof Shonsky️