Height difference; avoid, open embrace, or some other strategy?

[Miradamiranda]

I can dance more comfortably with followers of similar height

The whole point of my post above was that there was a learning curve for me, and that I didn’t know that some leaders have a narrow ideal height, that it’s only in theory that everyone can dance with everyone, that theory and preferences are two separate things.
Only after that knowledge do I understand that when followers are sitting too long that they often don’t get invited because the leaders can’t judge their height. In some scenes, not all.

 

[itwillhappen]

The whole point of my post above was that there was a learning curve for me, and that I didn’t know that some leaders have a narrow ideal height, that it’s only in theory that everyone can dance with everyone, that theory and preferences are two separate things.

How could one justify the theory that everyone can dance with everyone (equally well)?
I personally have a preference for dancing cheek-to-cheek. Better technique doesn't help there.

Only after that knowledge do I understand that when followers are sitting too long that they often don’t get invited because the leaders can’t judge their height. In some scenes, not all.

Interesting thought, but then they only have to move around from time to time.

 

[Mladenac]

The whole point of my post above was that there was a learning curve for me, and that I didn’t know that some leaders have a narrow ideal height, that it’s only in theory that everyone can dance with everyone, that theory and preferences are two separate things.
Only after that knowledge do I understand that when followers are sitting too long that they often don’t get invited because the leaders can’t judge their height. In some scenes, not all.

I have narrow ideal of height but I learnt to dance with shorter follower.
Danced a few time with taller followers (>182 + 7.5 cm heels), and it was a bit awkward.

 

[pianistamediano]

At 6'/182 cm, I find that I prefer to dance cheek-to-cheek (Love Ella and Louis! ), but I can dance quite easily with followers around 5'2/3 (~160 cm), in heels or flats, but I do have to adjust my leading, and it doesn't work unless they are experienced enough, because I cannot compensate enough for a beginner follower to dance in my preferred close embrace.

As for ladies who are taller than me in heels, well, I have absolutely no problems until I start having problems seeing ahead of us. It is still comfortable to dance with a lady who is more than a few inches taller, especially if we are alone, but practicality and respect for the other dancers alone force me to not invite them at a milonga.

 

[itwillhappen]

It is still comfortable to dance with a lady who is more than a few inches taller, especially if we are alone, but practicality and respect for the other dancers alone force me to not invite them at a milonga.

Hmm, does that mean, by implication, that relatively short leaders show not enough respect for the other dancers?

 

[pianistamediano]

Hmm, does that mean, by implication, that relatively short leaders show not enough respect for the other dancers?

You misunderstand my statement; if they are dancing with followers tall enough to sufficiently block their view of other dancers such that it becomes a hazard, I suppose so. Being essentially blind while dancing in the ronda is quite the inconvenience for everyone. If I cannot dance without troubling other people, then I will not dance.

Also, if they happen to have their face smushed right into the chest of the lady, well...

Of course, exceptions exist (like, say, doing it in an open embrace or angling your face outwards away from the follower), but talking about them is a bit pointless.

 

[Miradamiranda]

I don’t have the experience that my shorter leaders have trouble with floor craft, open or closed embrace, on the contrary, they might be more conscious of it and do a lot of turns to look behind. Taller guys might have more trouble because they are more used to trusting their peripheral vision, maybe. Plus their steps are much bigger.

 

[pianistamediano]

I don’t have the experience that my shorter leaders have trouble with floor craft, open or closed embrace, on the contrary, they might be more conscious of it and do a lot of turns to look behind. Taller guys might have more trouble because they are more used to trusting their peripheral vision, maybe. Plus their steps are much bigger.

Please read properly my explanation above: only if they are dancing with followers tall enough to sufficiently block their view of other dancers such that it becomes a hazard. Please note the qualifiers, and note that I have not made a blanket statement of any kind.

I have not stated that shorter leaders tend to have trouble with floorcraft (your words, not mine), nor that taller leaders are better at it (which I presume is what you think I'm insinuating). Please do not put words into my mouth.

It is only that beyond a certain degree of having your vision impeded by a taller follower, it is not very safe for anyone on the ronda. I also noted that there are exceptions and ways to manage such a thing, but the greater the height difference, the more difficult it is to get around visual impediment.

It applies to leaders of all heights.

 

[Tango Distance]

Miradamiranda (MM), thanks for your post.

I am a tall leader. Even with heels on (follower, not me), I have yet to encounter a follower taller than I am.

I get invited within seconds by a very good tall dancer who picked me out for my height, not having a clue whether I could dance or not. And again and again and again for what seemed like every single tanda all evening and the next couple of days, all tall guys. Often they had not seen me dance before they invited me. I hardly had to do anything myself to get a cabeceo. Wow.

I can't speak for those gentlemen, but here is my experience and observations.

• It is close to every tall follower has told me right off "It is nice to dance with a tall leader." Because of this, I give asking new-to-me tall followers priority. A follower being tall adds novelty, but I haven't found that, per se, makes for a better dance for me (more coming on this).
• I think physics makes for a better looking dance if the leader and follower are closer to the same size. Imagine tying two balls together and spinning the assembly. If the balls are the same weight, the spin will tend to be faster, than if the weights greatly differ. That I have seen, performers tend to be closer in size than average.
• I have read studies that say men generally prefer life partners who are shorter than they are. An interesting contrast is models tend to be tall. Maybe this spills over into Tango some? Women don't care so much (except that very short women prefer very tall men).

MM, I mirror your preferences, but with different reasoning. Just two weeks ago, I announced to two of my instructors, "It's official, dances with shorter ladies are better than tall ladies." My short female instructor looked very pleased. Here is my reasoning: Shorter followers have no worries, and know you are big enough to catch or stabilize them. When I try to lead some bigger, flashier off-axis or weight sharing steps with taller ladies, they'll often freeze and refuse to do it. Prior to this point, we will have done many "regular" steps just great, and I feel confident it will go well. I'll say something about how I am big and strong enough they'll be fine. They'll nervously do the step but then look happy, and it has gone well every time so far. That has been enough tall ladies I think it is beyond the statistics of small numbers. At the other end, in the last year, I have had awesome and very memorable dances with two ladies who could be closer to 4 feet tall than 5 feet.

 

[Brummbaer]

if they are dancing with followers tall enough to sufficiently block their view of other dancers such that it becomes a hazard, I suppose so. Being essentially blind while dancing in the ronda is quite the inconvenience for everyone.

It's not just height; it can be hair. Personally I can usually make an adjustment to turn and survey the floor - and hopefully rely on the follower to warn if they're going forwards and can see, or warn of someone approaching behind.

Generally I'd minimise tandas with significantly taller, or significantly shorter, or rounder followers, but wouldn't turn down a tanda if invited.

Also, if they happen to have their face smushed right into the chest of the lady, well...

Been there. One extremely tall follower in a class...

 

[pianistamediano]

They'll nervously do the step but then look happy, and it has gone well every time so far. That has been enough tall ladies I think it is beyond the statistics of small numbers. At the other end, in the last year, I have had awesome and very memorable dances with two ladies who could be closer to 4 feet tall than 5 feet.

With regards to that, dancing with ladies around the same height as mine is generally a delight, since we are both cheek-to-cheek, and it feels more natural. And most of the followers of various heights I've danced with do not display much difference in apprehension or nervousness, even when we do something beyond the norm (it just makes them giggle while they do it). I guess our experiences differ.

With regards to shorter followers, I think at some point (about ~5 feet or less, maybe), I struggle to lead them, since I would basically have to use more of my stomach than my chest, and I am only 10% of the way to developing that fabled milonguero belly. So it's not an issue with them at all that I avoid inviting them, it is my own lack of skill.

 

[itwillhappen]

With regards to that, dancing with ladies around the same height as mine is generally a delight, since we are both cheek-to-cheek, and it feels more natural.

When I dance cheek-to-cheek, I often hear my partner's breath and feel it when she smiles. What should one substitute these perceptions with?

 

[tangoing]

Miradamiranda (MM), thanks for your post.

MM, I mirror your preferences, but with different reasoning. Just two weeks ago, I announced to two of my instructors, "It's official, dances with shorter ladies are better than tall ladies." My short female instructor looked very pleased. Here is my reasoning: Shorter followers have no worries, and know you are big enough to catch or stabilize them. When I try to lead some bigger, flashier off-axis or weight sharing steps with taller ladies, they'll often freeze and refuse to do it. Prior to this point, we will have done many "regular" steps just great, and I feel confident it will go well. I'll say something about how I am big and strong enough they'll be fine. They'll nervously do the step but then look happy, and it has gone well every time so far. That has been enough tall ladies I think it is beyond the statistics of small numbers. At the other end, in the last year, I have had awesome and very memorable dances with two ladies who could be closer to 4 feet tall than 5 feet.

I find tall followers easier to dance with (if they have a ballerina build) since their center of gravity is higher which may match my own center of gravity since in general women's are 8-15% lower than men's. Although shorter follower's makes it easier to navigate since there is more vision.

 

[Bailango]

I have narrow ideal of height but I learnt to dance with shorter follower.
Danced a few time with taller followers (>182 + 7.5 cm heels), and it was a bit awkward.
As for ladies who are taller than me in heels, well, I have absolutely no problems until I start having problems seeing ahead of us. It is still comfortable to dance with a lady who is more than a few inches taller, especially if we are alone, but practicality and respect for the other dancers alone force me to not invite them at a milonga.

How experiences differ. I must have stated earlier in the thread that for me taller is easier than shorter. Most of my dances tend to be between 0” to -4” difference. The rest likely range between +2/3” to -6”. They all feel the same. Outside of that tends to be those outliers. Within the outliers the split is skewed 70:30 in favor of shorter:taller. It is not that I consciously choose by height. It is simply a function of the height distribution among available followers.

I think the tallest follower I have danced with must be 5” to 6” taller than me (including if they were wearing any heels). The shorter followers I have dance with might be good 8” or more shorter than me. And I am not a tall guy. I don’t find it any difficult to dance with someone taller than me. But when it comes to followers 7” or shorter (in heels), I can find it difficult. Unless the follower has good skills.

On view getting blocked, that is far easier to manage. View doesn’t get blocked on all the sides. I frequently use movement to check out my blind spots. Also if the leader ahead and behind have predictable movement, partial blockage or view is no issue. When they are unpredictable, it is a headache to manage the dance even with an unblocked view. Some followers ahead or behind might have a habit of doing high boloes, or the leader is swinging them around. In which case I make a mental note to be careful of not putting my partner in the line of danger on that side. Again the height doesn’t matter.

 

[Bailango]

When I dance cheek-to-cheek, I often hear my partner's breath and feel it when she smiles. What should one substitute these perceptions with?

I don’t want to hear my partner’s breath! It is rare I hear the breath because we are cheek to cheek. You can feel it with the chest but that’s different.

In my experience men are far more likely to have heavier breathing. When I have followed some men in classes, I am left wondering how do women dance with them for a whole tanda.