How and Whys of Tango Musicality

[Bailango]

Timba is a different beast than salsa. A lot of salsa dancers don’t like dancing to timba music. There are timba dancers that don’t like salsa music.

There are timba songs where you can dance on1 or on2. There are more timba songs that get popularly played where on1 nor on 2 feels right. They are better for dancing timba or casino. Also called Cuban style dancing.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Even a kindergarten or elementary/primary school teacher could teach the students the basics of music better.

Maybe intro tango, even intermediate, classes should incorporate such training. Of course, then you have the problem of getting people to sit through them.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I like your idea with the string/(insert instrument here) beats, but it sounds to me that they might be having trouble discerning the individual timbres of each instrument.

Even after years of listening, it's not always easy to pick out the sounds of the upright bass that serve as a guide to rhythmic patterns. Especially since in many tangos, the bass will go silent for periods of time. I think that, with time, if you're attentive, you develop a feel for the music, the way it ebbs and flows, more than the ability to identify individual beats that you might not want to follow anyway. But this requires a lot of concentration while dancing and many people just don't seem to be paying attention. Unfortunately.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

One that hears the beat but is unable to step on it in time.

In tango, I think this is not that uncommon, especially for beginners. And more especially with more complex music. Hearing it is one thing but coordinating physical movements is something else entirely for many of us.

 

[Rabbit]

This is an interesting discussion about musical listening skills because so far I've only taught this on a 1-1 basis and I have some difficulty figuring out how a group class for adults would be optimally structured. The problem is all untrained listeners perceive the music differently and some people have incorrectly mentally anchored to some particular musical element. And I wouldn't be surprised if half the class struggled with something the other half thought was easy.

There are structured teaching methods for children, but they have the advantage of not having to un-learn anything.

 

[pianistamediano]

Maybe intro tango, even intermediate, classes should incorporate such training. Of course, then you have the problem of getting people to sit through them.

Which goes back to my point of the vast majority of people (allowing for neurological conditions and the like) just being lazy and undisciplined and lacking the desire to actually improve their own musicality (or actually acquire musicality in the first place) beyond the basics. Why do so when they could be working on steps, let alone technique?

Even after years of listening, it's not always easy to pick out the sounds of the upright bass that serve as a guide to rhythmic patterns. Especially since in many tangos, the bass will go silent for periods of time. ... But this requires a lot of concentration while dancing and many people just don't seem to be paying attention. Unfortunately.

The quality of transfers and recordings plays a major part too — I'm glad that you cherish the double bass. I think the double bass is highly underrated and unappreciated by tango dancers and people who listen to jazz, but I am forced to admit that I can barely hear the double bass in most of the recordings I have to hand. It goes without saying that many DJs are apparently deaf to how loud the music they're playing is and generally have no idea how to use an equaliser properly to get better sound out of the recordings, so that makes it even worse too.

I enjoy the unique timbre of the double bass, and I love that it adds a certain irresistible texture when it is played well in any song. But even with all that, even as someone who loves picking it out in jazz recordings, I generally need to concentrate more than usual to dance to it, which means that most dancers wouldn't even be able to hear the double bass unless it hit them in the face with a frozen tuna. Additionally, the rhythmical patterns are almost always not punctuated by the double bass alone, which makes hearing it more difficult, and renders listening to it kind of moot.

Off the top of my head, I think I hear them best with D'Agostino/Vargas, and oddly enough I remember Quedemonos Aqui as a good example of using the double bass for more than just rhythm.

 

[Miradamiranda]

I usually tell people to sit down, don’t do anything else, put headphones on and listen while ‘dancing’ with their fingers. There’s less of a distance ear-brain-fingers, and they don’t have to worry about how cool they look and all the other stuff that gets in the way.
It was a tip I picked up in a workshop 20 years ago or so by a really old salsa dancer in NYC who was teaching us the different footwork for on2, on1, son, and cha-cha (including how to deal with when the clave gets turned around because the melody on the bridge demands for example 2-3, and the melody on the A-section demands the opposite 3-2).
It’s definitely applicable to tango also. If I’m at a milonga and am not dancing, I’m likely to be discretely drumming with my fingers on my water glass or thigh or whatever, as if I were dancing.
Btw I don’t believe in dumming things down for those who don’t think they are musical.

 

[pianistamediano]

I think that, with time, if you're attentive, you develop a feel for the music, the way it ebbs and flows, more than the ability to identify individual beats that you might not want to follow anyway. But this requires a lot of concentration while dancing and many people just don't seem to be paying attention. Unfortunately.

Laziness, no self-discipline, lack of desire for self-improvement, blah blah blah, ad nauseam.

Oh, and one more point: prioritising movement over music.

Personally speaking, unless those dancers are new to tango, I don't really see any reason for their existence — in tango or in general. Go dance your movements to Cardi B's WAP, plebs, it suits your musicality (or lack thereof) best.

(In all seriousness though, I'd rather dance to Big Shaq's Man's Not Hot than the umpteenth sodding late D'Arienzo/Echague tanda at every marathon.)

 

[Bailango]

Which goes back to my point of the vast majority of people (allowing for neurological conditions and the like) just being lazy and undisciplined and lacking the desire to actually improve their own musicality (or actually acquire musicality in the first place) beyond the basics. Why do so when they could be working on steps, let alone technique?

The same can be said of lack of desire to get good at dancing.

generally have no idea how to use an equaliser properly to get better sound out of the recordings, so that makes it even worse too.

Yes to this! It is good to know basics of sound engineering if you want to be a DJ.

 

[Bailango]

I am working with some advanced beginners who have zero experience with music. I am working on just clapping to the string beats of a song, then adding the feet to step on the claps, then taking the claps away and keep stepping on the string beats. 100% of the time, some people cannot keep stepping to the beats without also clapping. I clap for them and it is easier, but I would like to know if there are other suggestions for me to help these people.

There are two different things happening here. First is recognizing how beats are evenly spaced. The second is being able to step in uniform time. So the problem is how do you sub-divide the time evenly in your head. Then how do you step to match those sub-divisions, which are the beats. This is compounding the challenge.

For the first part, rather than you clapping make them clap. While they are not moving. Make them get used to synch their clapping to the beat. Decrease and increase the tempo of the music.

For second part ask them to clap each time they step. May be to make it easier they first clap and take step. Clap and take a step. Then take a step while they clap.

Make them do above drills without music. You can direct them to clap in single time and double time. So when you announce double, they clap double time. You announce single, they have to clap single time. The same when you make them walk while they clap.

If it is a group class and claps are not in synch, they will soon learn to be in synch.

After 10 minutes of this type of drill, start the music. Ask them to clap on the beat. And keep single time. Then double time. Some might have problem finding the beat and therefore when to clap. Then ask them to walk to the music while clapping to the beat as they walk.

I am a musician and I have difficulty making this as easy as they need it. Phrasing of music or counting beats or measures would be much too difficult.

Yes. What is second nature to you is complete foreign to them. You have to guide them through from knowing absolutely nothing to minimum required to dance on time.

When people say that ‘music is easy” I don’t think they are comprehending how absolutely overwhelming it can be to people who can’t even tap their feet to a beat.

No music is not easy if you have to deconstruct it. And you have to some degree to be able to dance to it. Musicians also find it difficult to be on beat when dancing.

I also have a friend from India and beats were a completely foreign concept to him. But he is brilliant and eventually read some things on the structure of music that would be too hard for most people.

Indian music has more complex system of beats and rhythm cycle than the Western music. But only those who learn it know about. Indian music also emphasizes melody. Therefore a casual listener to popular Indian music is more likely to get attuned to melody. Only those who study classical Indian music or learn classical Indian dancing know about beats, rhythms, phrasing, harmony, etc. There is popular Indian music (Bollywood and other local languages) which is composed in 3/4, 6/8, 5/4, 7/8 time signature besides the more popular even time signature of 2/4 and 4/4. However most casual listener won’t be able to tell. Time signature can extend to 12 beat cycle (or phrase). You can find some good tutorials on YouTube.

These people are really enjoying tango. I want to help them. They aren’t people who can just figure this out on their own by practicing at home.

Have you asked them to just tap their feet while they are seating ? That can be fastest way to read if they can sub consciously identify the tempo. If they can, then can they identify the beat. Usually 4/4 music is best to start for that exercise.

They need assistance. I have run out of ideas. I am very close to telling the leaders to primarily dance to the melodic instrument, but that doesn’t help them start moving on beats in the ronda at the beginning of a song. Nevertheless it would be a start.

I doubt they will be able to isolate and pick out particular instrument. Unless it is over powering the rest of the

Try to let them listen to the music as a whole. Can they identify the swing or mood of the music.

 

[Bailango]

I like your idea with the string/(insert instrument here) beats, but it sounds to me that they might be having trouble discerning the individual timbres of each instrument. They might be able to tell the difference between a violin and piano (or even, say, a double bass) in isolation, but put all of them together in even the simplest of tangos and it becomes a mess from their perspectives.

Yes!! Recognizing it in isolation and picking it out among layered instrumentation are very very different. This is one of the harder stuff. Where going back to active listening becomes important. It is like developing a muscle that hadn’t been used.

If all else fails, well, maybe some time with a metronome could help them maintain a regular rhythm throughout a whole song. It's hard to say more without knowing what kind of people you're working with; that's why us musicians tend to learn best one-on-one.

This true. In a group class people will be struggling with different aspects.

 

[Bailango]

I usually tell people to sit down, don’t do anything else, put headphones on and listen while ‘dancing’ with their fingers.

I do this when I am not dancing at the socials. A habit that got formed on its own

There’s less of a distance ear-brain-fingers,

I never thought of that

It was a tip I picked up in a workshop 20 years ago or so by a really old salsa dancer in NYC who was teaching us the different footwork for on2, on1, son, and cha-cha (including how to deal with when the clave gets turned around because the melody on the bridge demands for example 2-3, and the melody on the A-section demands the opposite 3-2).

Now you are giving me a headache the polyrhythmic salsa and Afro-Cuban rhythms are very challenging for uninitiated. Add on top of that clave direction and change of the direction due to the way music might accent or break and start again. Timing of son clave and rumba clave. @opendoor many timba songs are in rumba clave. Salsa songs are almost always in son clave.

It’s definitely applicable to tango also.

Tango in relative comparison is simpler musically.

If I’m at a milonga and am not dancing, I’m likely to be discretely drumming with my fingers on my water glass or thigh or whatever, as if I were dancing.

Yes me too.

 

[opendoor]

...Add on top of that clave direction and change of the direction due to the way music might accent or break and start again. Timing of son clave and rumba clave. @opendoor many timba songs are in rumba clave...

Of course, I've known that for a long time now! The reason for my comment was just to show empathy with those who can't keep a rhythm. It feels terrible in such a situation. But the feeling is the same whether it happens at a relatively high level in timba or to someone struggling with tango.

It’s definitely applicable to tango also..

I agree with you 100%. When we decorate or add golpes, it is often tresillos or cross rhythms. In tango, you decorate precisely to attract attention with rhythmic sophistication.

 

[Rabbit]

The quality of transfers and recordings plays a major part too — I'm glad that you cherish the double bass. I think the double bass is highly underrated and unappreciated by tango dancers and people who listen to jazz, but I am forced to admit that I can barely hear the double bass in most of the recordings I have to hand.

This is a notoriously difficult instrument to record/reproduce even with modern technology never mind 1940s. I'll go so far as to say you cannot really appreciate the quality of that sound without hearing it live.

 

[opendoor]

.. quality of transfers and recordings plays a major part too — I'm glad that you cherish the double bass. I think the double bass is highly underrated and unappreciated by tango dancers and people who listen to jazz, but I am forced to admit that I can barely hear the double bass in most of the recordings I have to hand....

The recordings from the golden age always have a distinctive bass. I only realized this when I started listening to shellacs with authentic gear. It also makes me wonder why the guys from TTT and TangoTunes can't digitize and balance better.