How does a dynamic dancer dance?

[Brummbaer]

why the strange reaction?

Just: Wow! I just can't be that precious and selective, or imagine how restrictive that could be. I also remember the tangueras who helped me. I don't call it a 'pity-tanda' or 'charity-tanda'. Yes, I have preferences, and some followers I'd actively prefer to avoid (e.g. hyperactive follower, PYT - they get dances anyway) but socially I'll dance a tanda with anyone - even raw beginners. Obviously there's a spread! I'm not there looking for some special follower who satisfies some requirements - maybe because I don't need to. I'm also available on request.

dedicated tango studios

An exception rather than common. Usually some hired space with other uses. Number of attendees variable from low double figures to hundreds (depending on location).

 

[JournalInTime]

Just: Wow! I just can't be that precious and selective, or imagine how restrictive that could be.

Fair enough.

Perhaps I'm spoiled by the fact that I rarely have to be selective or feel restricted. Out of the, I don't know, call it 60-80 tandas I dance in a typical week, there might be 2 or 3 (<5%) where I do not have more than one choice of interesting partners – and there's almost always one evening a week when I can't even get around to dancing with all the interesting partners.

I often hear, "When a dancer doesn't invite you all evening and then says, 'We'll dance next time,' it's just a poor excuse." This mystifies me. Deferring a tanda to next time is a thing I do regularly, and with complete honesty: I didn't have time to invite someone I had every intention of inviting!

I might have a totally different attitude if I didn't live less than 10 minutes on foot from two dedicated tango studios.

I also remember the tangueras who helped me.

So do I! They are "interesting," though, so they aren't default choices. They fall under my "je ne sais quoi" clause, my interest being based on shared history rather than dance per se.

even raw beginners

I dance one or two tandas with beginners per milonga and more than that per práctica. This is still based on interest, though, and not on a default "Well, if I don't, they'll feel left out." In this case, my interest is in community-building, so it's less than personal . . . but I project my impersonal interest onto the person so they feel it is personal, and any compliments I give are personal and sincere.

An exception rather than common. Usually some hired space with other uses. Number of attendees variable from low double figures to hundreds (depending on location).

I think this gets back to my opening paragraph: Here, "hired space with other uses" is relatively rare. When it happens, it's usually either a dedicated tango studio that controls a space and rents it out for other uses when there's no tango going on, or a dedicated dance studio that has an associated tango school as part of its regular programme. Most often, though, it's a tango studio, with decorations and signage that says as much. Attendance varies here, too, but while "hundreds" would be a special event (ball, live orquesta, festival gala, etc., all of which we have many times a year), anything less than 30 people is usually seen as a major failure, and two places I frequent set their line for success at 60.

 

[Brummbaer]

Here, "hired space with other uses" is relatively rare.

Here it's common. I'm only aware of one dedicated AT studio in England - and that, I understand, is running down towards eventual closure.

This weekend I'll be driving 180km to one milonga then 70km to another milonga (sadly skipping the one 5km away). All in village halls. One will have many people we know, the other probably just a few. One may have tables; the other won't. But I won't be making dance invitation choices depending on how followers respond to invitations from others! And how I invite will depend on the methods in use dictated by the environment (basic visability!) - the kitchen/drinks is likely to be the most social environment at one!

Dynamic changes?

 

[JournalInTime]

the kitchen/drinks is likely to be the most social environment at one!

Interesting. I've never been to a milonga like that. The closest thing was attending a party at the home of a tanguer@ and deciding to move the furniture, roll up the carpet, and dance . . . in which case it was silly fun, and "invitations" didn't exist, much less tandas, cortinas, etc. The smallest and most intimate events which I'd treat as milongas would be invitation-only birthday parties for tanguer@s that are still set up in a studio with a DJ, tandas, and some expectation of codes because not everybody knows everybody else. The last one of those I went to had around 30 people. I guess you could say the spectrum skips a long, long way in size in formality from "kitchen party" to "private birthday encuentro," with "milonga" just a short hop after that.

 

[Bailango]

Neither do I, but your response penalises the 'victim' (you won't invite those ladies who accept such invites),

You frame them as “victim”. I frame them as “enabler”. That’s the difference in our perception. “victim” and “enabler” is a big gulf that is hard to reconcile.

and yourself (you're missing a potentially good tanda),

Ohh I am missing other good followers that I don’t ask for different reasons. Fear of missing out (FOMO) isn’t something that sways me compared to average person. Neither socially nor professionally. It is trade off (missing potentially good tanda) that I am willing to make.

I also said I do not ask. If they ask, I am not going to say no.

meanwhile the perpetrator achieved their objective.

That’s not in my control and not going to lose sleep over Do you have any way to stop such perpetrator if you are not an organizer?

And you're not setting a better example (avoiding those milongas - assuming otherwise they're worthwhile).

I don’t miss those milongas. It is not like going to them is adding to my happiness. Rather it detracts from it. Many followers ask me why I don’t go to this or that milongas. I tell them my honest reasons. They go “yeah but….”

but you're just victim shaming, denying yourself a tanda, and giving them free rein.

Hardly. As I said at the top our framing is different.

Everyone had an agency. I simply do not see a “victim” here. That term denotes someone who had their agency taken away (often by force or leaving no option). Rather I see a willing participation to detriment of others. It is like justifying giving leaders with bad floor craft more room by advising that other leaders to restrict their own dancing. The so called “victim” here is enabling equivalent of bullying.

The Engish idiom is: cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Not really. Rather I think another idiom gives better idea as I see it: don’t feed the beast.

Of course, they may just be getting the dances they want...

Good for them then!

 

[Bailango]

Honestly, I didn't find it funny back then, JournalInTime.

I did find it funny. Your seventeen year old didn’t realise how odds were stacked against you

But there was compensation: Forty years later, they all came running after me whenever I promised mindful sunsets and much more...

justice delayed is justice denied?

 

[Bailango]

I hesitate to agree because I do not consider enablers to be victims.

Ahh we used the same argument!! I didn’t read your post before posting mine above

if they're pretending that accepting such invitations does not encourage leaders willing to break the rules and thus thwart leaders who follow the rules, they are remaining willfully ignorant.

Not just that. They are enabling these leaders to now subject other women to the same behavior. Putting those women on the spot to verbally say no or creating another “victim” by the logic being refuted here.

That willfulness makes them part of the problem, …but enablers, even accomplices.

To be crystal clear: I totally grasp the differences between laws and customs, and between potentially deadly substances and mere social inconvenience! However, I don't believe that those differences change the philosophical distinction between "victim" and "enabler/accomplice" one iota.

They are not rebelling. But rather being subversive to gain unfair advantage.

To me it's a clear "If you lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas" situation.

Good idiom.

 

[Bailango]

That's like blaming rape victims (cf. tangueras) because of their dress style - but the guy in the suit is ok.

Honestly using that as an analogy is trivializing heinous act.

Like I mentioned before it is question of agency.

'Enabler' here could just mean 'easy way out without causing a scene'

What scene exactly ? Why is saying a verbal no equivalent of creating a scene? Shouldn’t a woman be free to say no when she wants. You continue to make it sound like a coercion.

A tanguera who gave up recently commented to me: I got fed up travelling to milongas to get one dance all evening (I'd danced some pleasant tandas with her some years ago).

Did she ask ? I see ladies complaint not getting asked including a friend. But they will never ask or initiate cabaceo.

Cabeceo/mirada isn't always a workable option (despite the beliefs of some), or it's unknown, so other ploys (like the 'water-cooler' chat) are used.

That’s very different. Most at milongas know cabeceo. Water cooler chat is fine. You are only priming to ask later. You seem to be missing fine distinction between hand-ceo and passive acts.

whilst hand-eceo guy gets a tanda.

The two deserve each other

 

[fiesta0618]

Perhaps it's down to the pro-individualist, anti-collectivist upbringing I had in a military town on the NATO side of the Cold war that I have no love for honorable mentions, runner-up prizes, and participation trophies – everyone wanted the medal. Or maybe it goes back to being chosen last for the team, and only because I was the only kid left, not because anybody wanted me there. Whatever it is, for me, being selected merely because I am leftovers is one of the worst feelings in the world . . . I'd rather be passed over completely and try my luck next time, or the time after that, or after that.

Potential counterpoint framing for you:

Unlike choosing teams for sports in school, there's no requirement that everybody be picked. So even if you are the absolute last person on someone's list of desired partners...you are still on the list! Which puts you infinitely far ahead of everyone in the category of "absolutely not, under any circumstances."

You can't be everybody's favorite. Can't even manage to be in everybody's top half. But if you can manage to be a universal "fine, why not," I'd say that's a pretty good sign!

 

[Brummbaer]

Honestly using that as an analogy is trivializing heinous act.

On the contrary, I perceive a similar inheremale attitude. Someone accepts an invitation in a manner you don't approve of, so penalise the invitee.

What scene exactly ?

I refer you to the @opendoor 's anecdote, even though one example does not prove the point.

Did she ask

Oh dear, which 'tradition' and 'rule' of which era are we following for female followers? It does seem to be a 'can't win' scenario for followers.

Most at milongas know cabeceo

Many don't! Frequent complaint noted here is that it's not taught. Even if they do, it's not the locale's culture. Given that it's objective is not to be observed, why would they unless it's taught? And, of course, it looks as if some have decided it's not a winning strategy. Perhaps they're correct for their objectives.

The two deserve each other

Judging by the attitudes expressed, I guess they made a wiser choice with a better experience in the circumstances. Such a shame really. It is naff, and there are more pleasant solutions in the circumstances.

 

[Brummbaer]

I've never been to a milonga like that.

Well, chairs backed up along a couple of walls (no space for tables). Difficult to 'clear the floor' due to lack of space (unless some have gone for refreshments), no easy line-of-sight. Poor lighting. The kitchen, a separate room off the dance floor, with access to make drinks (tea, cofee, water - no alcohol), and maybe a few cakes and fruit. Make tanda arrangements. Wash your dishes afterwards! Possibly 50-100 people (depending what else is on and weather). Lousy parking! Nice floor, good music, nice, friendly, social atmosphere, people from various groups within a commutable radius.

It's not BsAs 'traditional'! Does anywhere wholly satisfy the myths?

 

[Miradamiranda]

I'd feel insulted if a dancer danced with me just because she was tired of sitting down, not because she actually wanted to dance with me.

But I couldn’t possibly know if I want to dance with you if I haven’t danced with you.

 

[pianistamediano]

So, I cannot imagine a seated tanguera wanting to dance with a tanguero with whom she otherwise would not dance, when his invitation – however he makes it – cannot hide, "I guess it'll be her because she's the only one left."

This, I never do; I never want it done to myself, so I will not give a dance out of pity; I have to want to dance with her for a reason.

 

[pianistamediano]

But I couldn’t possibly know if I want to dance with you if I haven’t danced with you.

You can watch me dance first!

As long as you're interested in me personally — and as long as your primary motivation for accepting my invitation isn't to get off your seat and dance. In the past, I've responded to interested looks from followers that, while I didn't feel a great desire to dance with, still had something that made me interested enough to invite.

I'd rather sit out a tanda than force myself to dance with someone I actually don't want to dance with. If I want to move, I can go to the gym or go out for a walk.

 

[pianistamediano]

Just: Wow! I just can't be that precious and selective, or imagine how restrictive that could be. I also remember the tangueras who helped me. I don't call it a 'pity-tanda' or 'charity-tanda'.

Restrictive? Hardly, I do dance a lot when I feel like it. I just never want to feel like I'm just a tool to be used — and I doubt you'd want to feel like that too.

And inviting tangueras who simply want to stop sitting and dance, not dance with me, does not appeal to me at all.