how long does it take to become proficient in tango?
- Thread starter manny
- Start date
Hey... sometimes beautiful women have asked you to dance... or hinted really blatantly anyway.
(I'm glad to see the old smileys will still work.. now if I only knew wher to go get them... send yourself a big smooch smiley from me)
Yes, I recall the thread, but it had a different focus. Here, the claim is that
is the way to go. And for six months.
If you are a newcomer, and you are eager to be a competent social dancer, then receiving some dance instruction, and dancing as much as you can, might prove to be a better strategy.
Yes, you are correct.
Although I think I had been dancing for a bit more than 36 minutes before it happened.
Re: How long to become proficient in tango
I agree roughly with everybody else: maybe 2 months/4 hours of lessons to being able to go to milongas, maybe 3-5 years to become an intermediate dancer (comfortable dancing at any milonga, with anybody), and then years and years of finding ones own style, own musicality, revisiting old things and so on.
Re: Friendliness of the tango community
Tricky question.
To some extent (which varies from community to community) tango is a relatively "private" affair, and getting dances is a skill set that few people consciously teach. There is a method to looking like one wants to dance. I often think that the proverbial "only pretty girls get dances" has more to do with the fact that they believe that they will get more dances, than anything else. Somebody who hides in the back of the room and looks only at the dancefloor will not get dances mainly because they don't look like they want to dance. Add to that that a lot of the more experienced people tend to gravitate towards using the cabeceo (or some sort of implicit pseudo cabeceo) and we get an environment that is potentially very opaque to new people or visitors.
Additionally the question for new people is not "why doesn't anybody want to dance with me", but "why doesn't anybody want to dance with me more than they want to dance with everybody else at the milonga" - a very different proposition - for me it looks like a decision for or against me, for them it looks like a choice between a dozen different options.
I personally would be quite surprised if i visited a milonga for the first time and anybody besides the host welcomed me - and tbh i am not a big fan of being introduced to people - our preferences in music and style might be completely incompatible, but we would still be forced to have at least one tanda.
So, what to do when going to a milonga for the first time:
1) find a spot where you can see/be seen (if there is assigned seating like in BA, either come early or get a reservation)
2) watch the dancefloor and the people
3) find somebody who looks like they are on roughly the same level of ability, and "fun" and start tracking them. If they never sit down find somebody else - your first tanda probably not going to be with the superstar of the milonga. If you are really good, look for somebody who is below your level, but still good enough to be enjoyable to dance with - again, your first tanda is not going to be with the superstar of the milonga.
4) followers: stare them down and look like you want to dance with them - you will feel like an idiot the first few times you do that, but it works. leaders: check if the milonga does cabecos - if so you do the same thing as the followers (the cabeceo is symmetrical - one of the nice things about it). Else: ask the follower to dance.
5) repeat a few times - usually after the third or so tanda the people who pay attention will have a good idea if they would have fun dancing with you, and everything will get easier.
Biggest pitfalls:
1) not understanding the milonga: if everybody meets at the snacks and chats, you have to go there, and chat. if everybody sits and cabeceos after the first song of a tanda is almost over, you have to do that. if everybody jumps up as soon as the cortina starts to grab a partner, do that. Sure, we are all think the way our home milonga does it is the best, but as a guest we have to accept that this is not our home milonga.
2) not understanding who will enjoy dancing with us: Always remember: we are way worse dancers than we think we are - if you doubt that grab a friend, and ask them to video you while dancing. You will be very surprised at how you actually look like dancing (well, i always am - i do videos every half year or so to identify things i could be working on, and my reaction is always "I look horrible - i have not fixed any of the things i wanted to fix, and instead there are new bad habits!")
3) Being grumpy. nobody wants to dance with somebody who is not having fun, especially when they are not part of the community. So, instead of "sitting and being angry about not dancing" is "sitting and drinking a beer" "sitting and enjoying watching great dancers" "sitting and enjoying great djing" "wandering around and having the wonderful snacks and complimenting the host on the venue"
4) being unlucky - every milonga has horrible days.
In my experience the tango community has quite a bit of surface tension, and it is quite easy to bounce off it - sometimes for random reason. But if you don't bounce off it is a really warm and welcoming community. Knowing somebody at least by sight, like classmates or advanced students from the same teacher, offering positive energy, being a great dancer, and just being persistent are good ways to reduce the surface tension.
Gssh
I agree roughly with everybody else: maybe 2 months/4 hours of lessons to being able to go to milongas, maybe 3-5 years to become an intermediate dancer (comfortable dancing at any milonga, with anybody), and then years and years of finding ones own style, own musicality, revisiting old things and so on.
Re: Friendliness of the tango community
Tricky question.
To some extent (which varies from community to community) tango is a relatively "private" affair, and getting dances is a skill set that few people consciously teach. There is a method to looking like one wants to dance. I often think that the proverbial "only pretty girls get dances" has more to do with the fact that they believe that they will get more dances, than anything else. Somebody who hides in the back of the room and looks only at the dancefloor will not get dances mainly because they don't look like they want to dance. Add to that that a lot of the more experienced people tend to gravitate towards using the cabeceo (or some sort of implicit pseudo cabeceo) and we get an environment that is potentially very opaque to new people or visitors.
Additionally the question for new people is not "why doesn't anybody want to dance with me", but "why doesn't anybody want to dance with me more than they want to dance with everybody else at the milonga" - a very different proposition - for me it looks like a decision for or against me, for them it looks like a choice between a dozen different options.
I personally would be quite surprised if i visited a milonga for the first time and anybody besides the host welcomed me - and tbh i am not a big fan of being introduced to people - our preferences in music and style might be completely incompatible, but we would still be forced to have at least one tanda.
So, what to do when going to a milonga for the first time:
1) find a spot where you can see/be seen (if there is assigned seating like in BA, either come early or get a reservation)
2) watch the dancefloor and the people
3) find somebody who looks like they are on roughly the same level of ability, and "fun" and start tracking them. If they never sit down find somebody else - your first tanda probably not going to be with the superstar of the milonga. If you are really good, look for somebody who is below your level, but still good enough to be enjoyable to dance with - again, your first tanda is not going to be with the superstar of the milonga.
4) followers: stare them down and look like you want to dance with them - you will feel like an idiot the first few times you do that, but it works. leaders: check if the milonga does cabecos - if so you do the same thing as the followers (the cabeceo is symmetrical - one of the nice things about it). Else: ask the follower to dance.
5) repeat a few times - usually after the third or so tanda the people who pay attention will have a good idea if they would have fun dancing with you, and everything will get easier.
Biggest pitfalls:
1) not understanding the milonga: if everybody meets at the snacks and chats, you have to go there, and chat. if everybody sits and cabeceos after the first song of a tanda is almost over, you have to do that. if everybody jumps up as soon as the cortina starts to grab a partner, do that. Sure, we are all think the way our home milonga does it is the best, but as a guest we have to accept that this is not our home milonga.
2) not understanding who will enjoy dancing with us: Always remember: we are way worse dancers than we think we are - if you doubt that grab a friend, and ask them to video you while dancing. You will be very surprised at how you actually look like dancing (well, i always am - i do videos every half year or so to identify things i could be working on, and my reaction is always "I look horrible - i have not fixed any of the things i wanted to fix, and instead there are new bad habits!")
3) Being grumpy. nobody wants to dance with somebody who is not having fun, especially when they are not part of the community. So, instead of "sitting and being angry about not dancing" is "sitting and drinking a beer" "sitting and enjoying watching great dancers" "sitting and enjoying great djing" "wandering around and having the wonderful snacks and complimenting the host on the venue"
4) being unlucky - every milonga has horrible days.
In my experience the tango community has quite a bit of surface tension, and it is quite easy to bounce off it - sometimes for random reason. But if you don't bounce off it is a really warm and welcoming community. Knowing somebody at least by sight, like classmates or advanced students from the same teacher, offering positive energy, being a great dancer, and just being persistent are good ways to reduce the surface tension.
Gssh
opendoor
Forum Master
Only want to canvass for discussion:
Once when I started tangoing I climbed up the greasy pole (simply walking, no figures, much posture, body work-out ...). I always was envious about those guys of my cohort that started to learn after the curriculum of Mauricio Castro Tangodiscovery©. I do not know if this curriculum did evolve meanwhile, but around 2000 Castro´s didactics entailed teaching all possible steps right from the beginning (according to Naveira´s and Salas´ analysis). So these guys led sacadas, boleos, and colgadas at a time when my axis still was considered unstable. All didactics will meet at some point and my former opponents learned posture and elegance in the meantime. But back that days they used to be the stars on the dance floor, not me.
In general, I think basics come before more advanced moves, merely because the more advanced moves can't be done well until the basic skills are accomplished. Lots of students struggle through the advanced movements but don't do them skillfully until they go back and learn the basics.
Specifically, it depends on the individual students, who may have different desires. Many beginners become seduced by fancy steps and will not be held back by a teacher. So, the teacher has to teach advanced steps or loose the student. OTOH, lots of students struggle with the fancy moves and become frustrated before they ever attain basic skills, so they quit learning anyway.
A question: "they were the stars of the dance floor", according to whom? I've noticed many times beginners who choose one of the worst dancers on the floor to emulate, because they don't know enough to watch the better dancers, or to even notice them.
Sth came across my mind.
The time we expressed here we didn't say how much dancing hourse per week is needed.
I know that some people used to dance more than 15 hrs per week + extra on festivals and taking workshop,
plus they would listen tango music in their non dancing time.
In addition to that dancer should also have be in advanced dancers community.
If the dancer follow that pace they would become proficient in 3 yrs.
Progress is very dependant on local community.
For normal social tango for leader I would say for feeling comfortable I would say about 6 month of dancing.
I believe it's easier followers at lower level dancing, but at advanced level it becomes almost the same.
The time we expressed here we didn't say how much dancing hourse per week is needed.
I know that some people used to dance more than 15 hrs per week + extra on festivals and taking workshop,
plus they would listen tango music in their non dancing time.
In addition to that dancer should also have be in advanced dancers community.
If the dancer follow that pace they would become proficient in 3 yrs.
Progress is very dependant on local community.
For normal social tango for leader I would say for feeling comfortable I would say about 6 month of dancing.
I believe it's easier followers at lower level dancing, but at advanced level it becomes almost the same.
twnkltoz
Forum Master
Honestly, as a follower it is so unpleasant to dance with someone who tries to lead you through moves when they have no concept of the basics. My husband once expressed jealousy of another leader who knew a lot more moves than he did, and DH thought this man was, therefore, a better dancer. The person he was so jealous of was someone I and other women avoided because he was not only uncomfortable to dance with, he was arrogant and convinced that he knew more than we did (he didn't).
opendoor
Forum Master
Agreed, only would change advanced by more complex. But I want to add that generally seen, didactics and a well based education only is one pillar. Teachers have to motivate and to keep students in line (they live on tango). So a teacher must sometimes stray from the "true doctrine" in order not to loose those students and to meet the demands of those young wild.
bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
a couple of (random) points; i don't think Castros Curriuculum/naveira's analysis necessarily leads to boleos, and sacadas and colgadas. In "The Structure of the Dance" it reveals in a fairly dry fashion, (all?) the different combinations of steps possible.
"Late in the 20th century, several tango dancers (the author among them) discovered that there is a far more basic structure underlying all these sequences. Every known sequence -- almost every possible sequence, in fact, can be described in terms of just three basic kinds of step combined in different ways. This is a surprisingly but incredibly powerful revelation: it is as if you've been learning a language from a phrasebook, and all of a sudden somebody introduces you to the grammar. You've only learned whole melodies, and somebody teaches you to name the notes. It opens up an entire world of possibilities for invention, improvisation, and personal expression."
an amazon review...
I agree that basics are fundamental...colgadas and so forth may be seen as the electric guitar riffs and licks that people want to play, but they are only a small element of the song, or in this a dance to music and they need to play chords, notes and rhythms, and to tune the guitar, in order to fill the rest of the time, not to mention, knowing some musical theory
Yes, that's a better word. It takes an advanced dancer to do a simple but superb dance.
I partially agree with that.
Dancing simply to completely to the music over time becomes boring.
It maybe be suitable for festivals or big milongas.
But younger dancers want to explore complex stuff in tango.
They want to push their boundaries.
I am into both simple and complex dancing.
It comes and go over. It's like moon's phases to me.
Lately I like more complex dancing.
And it seems that followers want it, so I need to deliver it.
Oh, I understand that. Many years ago I was a younger dancer and I, too, wanted to do the fanciest, most challenging dances possible. After several years of that I began to learn that there could be something more fulfilling and satisfying in doing simpler, easier steps, but with greater nuance and expression. You said that simple becomes boring after a while. I discovered the opposite, that fancy becomes boring, while simple never does.
Lately I like more complex dancing.
And it seems that followers want it, so I need to deliver it.
Most followers I know want a mix of experiences during the evening. What they find boring usually isn't a particular type of dancing, but rather dancing only one particular type of dance all night.
I'd also say that most followers I know who prefer complex over simple have that preference because they are choosing between complex with a somewhat more advanced dancer vs simple with someone less skilled who can't do much else. They don't get "simple intimate and fully connected dance from a very advanced leader" as one of their choices. Once they experience that, then their negative attitude about simple usually changes radically.
I personally don't know any followers who would prefer a complex dance with the typical mid-size community local leader to a simple dance with someone like Jorge Torres.
My point is that when followers prefer complex over simple, they often aren't basing their preference solely on dance moves, but also on the overall skill level of leaders more likely to do them.
It also seems that followers go through a "fancier is better" growing stage just like leaders. It's not the most advanced followers I hear complaining "He doesn't do much of anything" about good leaders who keep it simple. It's the advanced beginner and intermediate followers that I hear saying that.
YMMV