How much practice till we went to our first milonga?

How long did it take you to go to your first milonga?

  • Leader: 0-6 months

    Votes: 16 59.3%
  • Leader: 6 months - 1 year

    Votes: 3 11.1%
  • Leader: 1-2 years

    Votes: 2 7.4%
  • Leader: 2-4 years

    Votes: 1 3.7%
  • Leader: 4 years+

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Follower: 0-6 months

    Votes: 4 14.8%
  • Follower: 6 months-1 year

    Votes: 1 3.7%
  • Follower: 1-2 years

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Follower: 2-4 years

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Follower: 4-8 years

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    27
There's often more traffic in the line of dance on the outer edge, so it's more congested and you need better floorcraft. Also, beginners have a tendency to STOP and practice stuff they learned, which is not a good thing for dance flow. Inside can be a bit chaotic but sometimes there's a quiet zone in the center that you can treat as your safe place. A lot of beginners don't even realize there's a line of dance and such a thing as dance flow.

This is exactly what i was trying to say - isn't this absurd?

Tango is a progressive dance - the first thing you learn is to walk. (At least this is how my beginner class went: every single class started with walking solo in the line of dance for one song, then walking in line of dance as a couple for one song, and later every class ended with 2 or so songs of switching partners every half song and walking in the line of dance and doing the vocabulary we had just learned). So how is the quiet zone in the center a safe place when being there does basically not allow one to do ones most basic vocabulary?

The floorcraft requirements in the middle always seem to be higher to me - people are intruding from all directions, the circle to walk is really small, people stop completely and block your walking, and even if you stop completely some people think the middle is a space where weaving through couples is acceptable.
 
This is exactly what i was trying to say - isn't this absurd?

The floorcraft requirements in the middle always seem to be higher to me - people are intruding from all directions, the circle to walk is really small, people stop completely and block your walking, and even if you stop completely some people think the middle is a space where weaving through couples is acceptable.
I know. I was told to dance in the center when I was first learning, although the center is usually a bit of a mess. The thing is, it's like the eye of the cyclone; there's often a quiet place right at the center, and all the other dancers can revolve around you. If the lines of dance (one or two) are *uniform*, it can be done. If the inner pista has people moving every which way, it's a lot harder.
 
Going early reinforced my desire to learn the dance. I started formulating lists of things I need to work on. I also realized it was something that would require years of consistent work to get to an intermediate level. My goal is advanced beginner in 3 years—with 3 private lessons a week. I do go to milongas and with the right music (melodic, slow) after nearly 2 years am able to dance in a way that approaches being okay. I see many dancers (both men and women) who do the steps and seem to have fun, but they desperately need work on posture, hip position, use of arms (or lack thereof). Does it matter? If they’re having fun, maybe not....
All of these problems get corrected achingly slowly. You uncover and develop new muscles. It’s something you have to want badly.
 
My main problem at the Milongas is very often what the heck to do when the couples in front of me don‘t walk because they are doing pattterns standing... I still have very little vocabulary for that.
 
My main problem at the Milongas is very often what the heck to do when the couples in front of me don‘t walk because they are doing pattterns standing... I still have very little vocabulary for that.
Yep, 100% this. Pretty much all I did for the first 2-3 months of private lessons was walking. That's absolutely appropriate in terms of technique, but hopeless in a crowded milonga as there is so little walking going on – just lots of circular stuff. If you don't have any circular vocabulary, you end up doing lots of rebounds in slow circles and generally feeling frustrated.

For me, the real breakthrough in milongas was when I could do ochos, ocho cortados and something which might, in sufficiently dim lighting, be mistaken for a giro. At that point, I no longer felt panicked when stuck in one place.

It also means that my focus now is developing my technique for the things I can already do: transforming them from something followers can recognise into something precise and elegant. I'll report back in a few years ...
 
My main problem at the Milongas is very often what the heck to do when the couples in front of me don‘t walk because they are doing pattterns standing... I still have very little vocabulary for that.
You can do smaller versions of steps. The simple beginner solution are side steps or rock steps. Ochos don't need to be walking - they can be on the spot. You can also lead back or forward ochos in a circle around yourself as leader. Some may argue that this is stepping backwards, but it needn't be. My butt and the space around is sacrosanct (but avoid those high boleos if you're behind me. I prefer not to rip my trousers or have objects stuck in my legs or butt in AT). You can also lead to your side, as in the ocho cortado, or how about a cross as part of the "8-step basic" to the side. Another option is to stop your follower, like in an ocho cortado, and then you as leader either walk around or do a giro, or even a double molinette. BTW, it's not always easy to stop a follower on free run. You can play with sanguchito and empujadas.
 
This is also a bit of a surprise to me. In some ways it feels like we are taught the wrong things as beginners.
Agreed. More advanced dancers would consistently advise me, "You can have a nice dance just walking." And I would consistently try, only to discover that at the milonga, two or three steps is a long walk. I saw the people who advised me walking, but they were all "somebodies," so people gave them room – not because they danced big, dangerous steps, but because they were higher up the social pecking order and blocking them would get you shut out. At that stage, knowing turns and some static vocabulary would've been nice.

The reason why I waited six months to go to the milonga was because that marked the end of my second session, at which point I had a couple of walking turns and could lead steps that didn't advance too quickly when I was caught between the "somebody" couples who controlled the floor. My teachers recommended not attending the milonga without those tools, and I'm glad I listened.

I was taught that the safest place is the edge
Me, too. When those same teachers said, "Now you have the tools – go dance!", they also tacked on, ". . . but I don't want to see you anywhere but in the outside lane." I was told in simple words I couldn't misinterpret, in two languages, that the center was where peacocks danced very large and dangerous static movements (like huge colgadas with heels poking out), and therefore the absolutely worst place for beginners.

I see many dancers (both men and women) who do the steps and seem to have fun, but they desperately need work on posture, hip position, use of arms (or lack thereof). Does it matter? If they’re having fun, maybe not....
It matters when you get a repetitive strain injury to a joint. That isn't fun at all. I've managed to injure one ankle (on ice), two knees (genetics), and lately my back (moving crates), none of it due to dancing. It all sucks terribly, and I know people who've given themselves the same injuries while dancing with bad back posture, outthrust hips, weird arm positions way above their head (ugh), etc.

My main problem at the Milongas is very often what the heck to do when the couples in front of me don‘t walk because they are doing pattterns standing... I still have very little vocabulary for that.
I'm most likely to dance turns if the space is big enough, or those static steps you're not supposed to dance at the milonga if the space is tiny and I'm going to be parked behind someone for 30 seconds anyway. My primary partner and I dance so close that people remark on it. We've also learned to dance all steps close, including stuff like follower back sacadas. So you can do a lot in a 50cm × 50cm square eventually.

Before I learned that, I made all my beginner vocabulary circular whenever I got blocked. Anything you can do while moving down the floor – walks, crosses, ochos, etc. – can be curved by stepping slightly around your partner or making your steps with one leg different in size from your steps with the other. You can interrupt any of that with balanceos, too; you can have a lot of fun with balanceos in ochos, balanceos to cross and uncross repeatedly, and so on. Walking on the "dark side" in cross system can be turned into a tight little circle; I recommend dancing in cross system as much as possible, as it gives you more options. Leading the free leg without transferring weight, in little touches, can mark the music well and safely if you're parked in place.

Just remember that "adding vocabulary" like this is something you don't have to keep doing forever and grow obsessed with. You'll eventually have more steps than you can possibly use, and you'll condense your vocabulary to the steps you like and feel are comfortable and elegant. The focus shifts to technique, to avoid those injuries I mentioned just above. For instance, I've done entire sessions on boleos but I rarely lead them – not because I can't, but just because I don't like boleos much. I've also done entire sessions on sacadas, which I put everywhere. (Of course your partner has a voice, too; mine doesn't like boleos, either, but she loves ganchos and volcadas, so I've worked on those more for her than for me.)

Yep, 100% this. Pretty much all I did for the first 2-3 months of private lessons was walking. That's absolutely appropriate in terms of technique, but hopeless in a crowded milonga as there is so little walking going on – just lots of circular stuff. If you don't have any circular vocabulary, you end up doing lots of rebounds in slow circles and generally feeling frustrated.
This is true. That's why I brought the problem to my private teacher and got the vocabulary advice I wrote above: curve your steps, interrupt steps with balanceos, dance more in cross system, play with the free leg.
 
My butt and the space around is sacrosanct
I was taught that the codigos accept that as long as you leave at least one foot in the space your couple has otherwise vacated, you may return there with the other one to three feet of your couple. You haven't given up the space until all four feet have left it behind. This is a very useful tool, and one reason not to compulsively collect the feet as long as you can keep nice lines and closed thighs while open.

Another option is to stop your follower, like in an ocho cortado, and then you as leader either walk around or do a giro, or even a double molinette. BTW, it's not always easy to stop a follower on free run.
I love that stuff and do it all the time. Turns on two feet for the follower, and the mutual molinete, are underused ways to make use of limited space. But getting a follower to stop for a turn on two feet isn't always the easiest, I agree. Just in general, there seem to be a lot of people who have a compulsive avoidance of using the middle point (equal weight on two feet) in their dance.
 
This is true. That's why I brought the problem to my private teacher and got the vocabulary advice I wrote above: curve your steps, interrupt steps with balanceos, dance more in cross system, play with the free leg.
Yes, I eventually took some specific lessons on addressing this, and learned circular ochos, tight circular walking, and closer-embrace ocho cortados, which then gave me enough options to cope.

I really look forward to reaching this point! "You'll eventually have more steps than you can possibly use, and you'll condense your vocabulary to the steps you like and feel are comfortable and elegant."
 
I was taught that the codigos accept that as long as you leave at least one foot in the space your couple has otherwise vacated, you may return there with the other one to three feet of your couple. You haven't given up the space until all four feet have left it behind. This is a very useful tool, and one reason not to compulsively collect the feet as long as you can keep nice lines and closed thighs while open..

I've heard that as well, and a good rule. I prefer a simple measure in a tightly-packed milonga. If I feel you there, then you're way too close. I might be tempted to lead that plane instead of the calesita.
 
I see many dancers (both men and women) who do the steps and seem to have fun, but they desperately need work on posture, hip position, use of arms (or lack thereof). Does it matter? If they’re having fun, maybe not....
All of these problems get corrected achingly slowly. You uncover and develop new muscles. It’s something you have to want badly.
It matters. It's more than a question of fun (for me, at least) in tango. There are lots of ways to have fun, tango, when practiced fully, is a lot deeper than that. At least it can be if you approach that way. I think that's what makes it so different from other partner dances. And yes, I agree, it's something you have to want badly, which means, being willing to work for it.
 
My main problem at the Milongas is very often what the heck to do when the couples in front of me don‘t walk because they are doing pattterns standing... I still have very little vocabulary for that.
Yeah, that's a problem for you. Side to side, back and forth. Maybe a little rock step with a pivot?
 
I really look forward to reaching this point! "You'll eventually have more steps than you can possibly use, and you'll condense your vocabulary to the steps you like and feel are comfortable and elegant."
I'm too new myself to say much about when that point is reached . . . March marked my sixth year of regular dancing and classes. My teacher claims vocabulary saturation happens near the five-year mark. So I fit the profile, but my sample size is uselessly tiny.

I can tell you how to get there: I took a lot of classes – too many, in the opinion of some on these forums. Because classes on musicality, technique, traffic management, etc. fail to open 2/3 of the time, while "Dangerous Stuff You Should Never Try At The Milonga 101" always fills in 30 seconds and has a waitlist besides, I've found that classes are the surest way to drown in vocabulary. So all you have to do to get too much vocabulary is continue your classes.
 
Just remember that "adding vocabulary" like this is something you don't have to keep doing forever and grow obsessed with. You'll eventually have more steps than you can possibly use, and you'll condense your vocabulary to the steps you like and feel are comfortable and elegant. The focus shifts to technique, to avoid those injuries I mentioned just above.

Very important point and one I believe characterizes the really good dancers and the old milongueros. The ability to take a lifetime of training and condense it down into a small number of beautifully executed movements. Doing a lot of different things doesn't make for better tango, it just makes for a busier dance. The silences are important.
 

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