How should followers learn to dance tango?

[Gssh]

I have to say I disagree with this; Firstly no-one can make a followers leg relax except herself
that why she needs to practice- usually against a wall getting the free leg to move with minimum muscular tension.

I actually agree with you - let me rephrase this: A leader who goes to a workshop and all he gets out of it is a new "move" without learning something about the techique and structure that makes it possible is in as much trouble as a follower who learns boleos and ganchos (and embellishments) as things in themselves without the structure/technique that makes it actually possible to do these things/adapt the ideas to different situations. I have been in quite a few workshops where i in the end i had learned about as much as if i had watched the thing on youtube (well, a little bit more because i got to practive with a partner).

Gssh

 

[Zoopsia59]

I'm going to be really controversial, and say perhaps what is more important than a syllabus is a nurturing environment where beginners have a chance to dance with improvers in a safe space, and people keep an eye on the tango babies..

I'm going to be really predictable and agree with Spec... again....

 

[Zoopsia59]

i
Noting that if you want a cross step or ocho you have to get the womans leg out of the 'collect' position first.

Huh? where is her leg supposed to be? hanging out in midair 12" from her center? I don't understand why you have to get a follower out of collected neutral to do this exercise using a cross step or ocho. You have to get her TO collected neutral to get her to respond correctly to an ocho, IMO.

her ocho becomes more of an across behind step ( or "fat biddy ocho")
leaders please not that this reduces the length of step the follower can do so take smaller side steps.

I thnk I've read reference before to a crossing ocho being some sort of fat/old/whatever step. Frankly, its actually HARDER for a "fat" woman to do a crossing side step. The larger someone's thighs, the lower in the leg the crossing has to occur. A skinny thing can get quite an impressive reach when crossing at the upper thigh. So yes, the step ends up being smaller if the follower has large legs and crosses below the knee, but that doesn't make this move a fat old biddy step.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEfCDWLwp-4

Check out Mariana at 1:25- 1:35
Mariana's not 20, but I wouldn't call her fat, old or a biddy. And this entire piece is hardly traditional "old milonguero" tango.

Don't reinforce Mario's notion that there is some sort of age prejudice in tango regarding styles or moves.

PS - I'm not 20 either, but I'm fairly thin and fit, and I LOVE cross-back ochos! Fat biddy indeed... Harrumph!

 

[Zoopsia59]

there are more important things IMO. Simple and fundamental things about staying in front of the leader, trusting yourself to put your feet roughly where they need to be if you're thinking of nothing other than staying in front of your partner (it's amazing how remarkably easy crosses become when this is the approach), and staying forward/not taking your weight back. That's enough to keep her occupied for quite a while.

And I'm going to agree with Peaches...

 

[Zoopsia59]

I'm sorry, but I must disagree...and strongly at that. I am firmly of the opinion that privates at the outset (OK, perhaps after an appetite has been whetted with a group class) save time, and trouble, and money, and help prevent bad habits right from the start.

I think you are right in the current climate of classes being badly taught. However, I think the problem is the way the classes are, not in that there is a need for privates even when the classes are done properly.

Many of the bad habits are fairly common, if not universal, so why they don't get addressed in group classes is beyond my comprehension. But they COULD be and SHOULD be. Class teachers shouldn't be relying on the hope that a student is getting those things corrected by some OTHER teacher!

The more personal thiings that are unique to a particular student's movement can also get addressed in the individual attention portion of the class.

If I'd had to fork over $50-$100 an hour for privates when I first started tango, I wouldn't have taken it. I'd still be doing ballroom. But then, I DID get this proper instruction in class right from the get-go, so I know it can be done. Maybe not with personal attention every class if the class has 20+ people, but in a midsize city like ours and others across the US, few beginner classes ever have that many.

I'm not saying NEVER take privates. I'm saying group classes need to be better so people don't have to take privates just to get proper beginner level instruction. It should be an exception because of an unusual lack of good beginner instruction, not the NORM.

 

[Zoopsia59]

It reminded me of when I took a workshop on embellishments. We spent the whole hour doing solo exercises. What a waste. It's not much use learning how to do an embellishment if you don't learn when to use it.

I disagree that you need a partner leading you to learn things about when to do them. It may be that in the workshop you took, there was no instruction regarding timing or potential places to put embellishments, but it certainly can be addressed in a follower only/ solo practice class.

I've had a workshop in it, and I've taught some principles and ideas of "when" myself to followers in lessons without leaders. I'm not even a teacher with vast experience and reputation, so I don't see any reason why this aspect of adornos was not addressed in the workshop you took.

 

[AndaBien]

I think you are right in the current climate of classes being badly taught. However, I think the problem is the way the classes are, not in that there is a need for privates even when the classes are done properly.

Many of the bad habits are fairly common, if not universal, so why they don't get addressed in group classes is beyond my comprehension. But they COULD be and SHOULD be. Class teachers shouldn't be relying on the hope that a student is getting those things corrected by some OTHER teacher!

The more personal thiings that are unique to a particular student's movement can also get addressed in the individual attention portion of the class.

If I'd had to fork over $50-$100 an hour for privates when I first started tango, I wouldn't have taken it. I'd still be doing ballroom. But then, I DID get this proper instruction in class right from the get-go, so I know it can be done. Maybe not with personal attention every class if the class has 20+ people, but in a midsize city like ours and others across the US, few beginner classes ever have that many.

I'm not saying NEVER take privates. I'm saying group classes need to be better so people don't have to take privates just to get proper beginner level instruction. It should be an exception because of an unusual lack of good beginner instruction, not the NORM.

I am saying that in beginners classes, followers often wind up trying to follow leads that are poor or non-existent. They also do steps because they know what is expected (what is being taught), instead of waiting for leads. This happens in beginners classes weather they are well or poorly taught. I think it causes followers to focus on the wrong things. My suggestion for taking private lessons is so beginner followers can understand that they are able to follow a good lead, and they should wait until it happens. I think this would avoid a lot of struggle for beginner followers. And yes, it would be expensive, but maybe it would be worth the cost.

 

[Zoopsia59]

This happens in beginners classes weather they are well or poorly taught. I think it causes followers to focus on the wrong things.

Yes, mistakes are made even when the class is taught well. Beginners make mistakes.

But your issue is with such a common mistake that there's no reason it can't be addressed in the class because its useful for all followers in the class to get this feedback. If the followers are anticipating steps because they've learned the "steps" then perhaps the teacher is focusing too much on steps.

IMO people focus on what a teacher encourages them to focus on, especially in a new subject. If the teacher talks about the leader's "part" vs the followers' "part" (ie the stesp each take) then you're going to have trouble with the leaders and the followers.

I'm a follower, and I got excellent instruction on how to follow from day one, in a CLASS. I KNOW it can be done. The idea that beginner followers HAVE to get this stuff from privates is just not the case. If you think it can't be done in a class and it must come from privates to be effective, then we'll have to agree to disagree. You wanted discussion and other people's views on this topic, but you don't seem to be open to alternative viewpoints... or am I misinterpreting your posts?

 

[Zoopsia59]

. I would have a very different plan for leaders.
.

Which is? (or did you post it and I somehow skipped over it?)

 

[AndaBien]

...
But your issue is with such a common mistake that there's no reason it can't be addressed in the class because its useful for all followers in the class to get this feedback. If the followers are anticipating steps because they've learned the "steps" then perhaps the teacher is focusing too much on steps.

IMO people focus on what a teacher encourages them to focus on, especially in a new subject. If the teacher talks about the leader's "part" vs the followers' "part" (ie the stesp each take) then you're going to have trouble with the leaders and the followers.

I'm a follower, and I got excellent instruction on how to follow from day one, in a CLASS. I KNOW it can be done. The idea that beginner followers HAVE to get this stuff from privates is just not the case. If you think it can't be done in a class and it must come from privates to be effective, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

You wanted discussion and other people's views on this topic, but you don't seem to be open to alternative viewpoints... or am I misinterpreting your posts?

If you've understood me to be disrespectful of your opinion, then I regret that. It was not my intention. I was simply responding to your comments.

In my own classes I had tried to address the problem I explained just above. I have seen many times that followers do what they know they are supposed to, independently of their partner's lead, because their partner hasn't learned yet to think about anything beyond his own footwork.

I very much appreciate the comments people have made. If I have responded to yours with additional comments, it's because yours have caused me to think more deeply about the topic. If I recognize points that are unclear to me, I would like the opportunity to focus on those points and ask for additional thoughts about them.

 

[Zoopsia59]

If I have responded to yours with additional comments, it's because yours have caused me to think more deeply about the topic. If I recognize points that are unclear to me, I would like the opportunity to focus on those points and ask for additional thoughts about them.

I'm sorry if I came across as snippy. I can be pretty opinionated and I sometimes project that onto the other person. My bad.

I DO think privates are useful for followers. I myself take nothing but privates now unless I am leading, and I recommend them to other followers who have reached a certain level.

However, I don't think tango should be getting taught in such as way that followers NEED to take privates from the start to get good instruction on being a follower. I realize that in reality they often do, and that it gets WORSE the more advanced you get. As posted by others, classes too often don't give anything to the followers, but I think that is a FAILING on the part of teachers rather than some un-alterable nature of group classes with peers. I truly believe it CAN be done in a class format with a balance of leaders and followers, at least for the first month or 2. Both followers AND leaders have trouble fixing what's going wrong when dancing with someone at their own beginner level. It isn't just the followers who benefit from dancing with more advanced dancers.

I also think if you find someone who DOES make it work in this way for the first month or 2, the next months are going to be just as beneficial, and there's no reason to mess with success!

But I also realize that many people, men AND women, are not open to learning the fundamentals before they dive into showy stuff, and that they get frustrated with the learning curve in tango when "steps" are not the focus (I think this is especially true of people who have had some experience with ballroom classes where patterns are taught and more easily remembered in the beginning)

I'll also admit that because my first teacher taught the way he did, he was not the more popular teacher in the area. In fact, he becamse the LEAST popular over time as more people began teaching! People who are trying to earn their living from teaching have to do what they can to increase class size. That usually doesn't make for the best learning environment. My teacher didn't care about class size and he wasn't making his living in dance. So he did as he thought best, and never got a lot of students.

But I turned out ok at least....

 

[Steve Pastor]

I just spent four days taking lessons from someone who has a long standing, but ever being refined method for teaching partner dancing, in this case West Coast Swing. She and her fellow teachers think AT is 10 years away from a similar approach.
I wonder?
And I also wonder what others here think about it?

 

[Lui]

@ Zoopsia59
If there are more than seven couples in one course, there is too little time left for the individual dancer. Many teachers go with quantity to make a living today. In my eyes, there is a better possibility: Teach small groups for a higher price. There is a catch however: You have to live up to your prices and deliver quality.

@ Steve Pastor
I have never taken any swing class. I’s not that I don’t like it, I simply don’t have the time. Further, I don’t know if the local teachers provide the same refinements you will find at the US West coast. I’m not sure even, if the dance taught here is real West Coast swing. Currently Balboa is the high fashion. Is this swing at all? If I would like to truly judge the refinement of swing classes in general, I would need to take a year off and tour your west coast doing field research. I have a great respect for your teacher, if she took a simliar effort to evaluate the level of Tango classes. If not, she probably still is a great teacher, but I would take her evaluation with a grain of salt.

 

[Mario7]

If I would like to truly judge the refinement of swing classes in general, I would need to take a year off and tour your west coast doing field research. .

...Funny, Swing classes. I grew up dancing swing only we called it jitter bug. I never took a class and didn't even know that I danced good swing until someone told me so. Hmmm, I wonder if this has any relevance to Milongueros and Tango..
..and all these 'teachers' who 'need' to have large classes in order to 'make a living'
Maybe Chrisjj... was right about a Pyramid scheme?

 

[Zoopsia59]

@ Zoopsia59
If there are more than seven couples in one course, there is too little time left for the individual dancer. Many teachers go with quantity to make a living today.

Yes I agree, and perhaps I didn't say it as well in my post.

7 couples is 14 dancers. This would definitely be stretching the limit of what I personally can deal with as a teacher (in fact, its over my comfort level). In my post I said something about 20 dancers (not 20 COUPLES! oh Gawd no!)... perhaps that is too many, but I was trying to consider that another more experienced teacher might be better than I at handling a large group, so I guessed in adding to what I would want to do myself.

I also have not taught a consistent group of my own for weeks on end, and when I have taught 10+ people in a class, i was subbing for another teacher and I didn't know the students. That makes it much harder. If you teach the same folks week after week, I think you can deal with a larger class than when you go in to a group of strangers cold to teach them one time. I would think the students would also be more forgiving of not getting your individual attention in EVERY class, as long as you get around to each person at more classes than not.

Of course, this is exactly the OPPOSITE of what usually happens in that "famous" guest teachers get huge classes and locals get a few loyal diehards who take consistently from them (at least around here)

I also figured that not every student needed to get one on one time every week. If you got it MOST weeks but not all, I think you'd still get your money's worth, and with 20 you could get around to each couple at least every other week. Besides, in a first timers class, there will be such common BIG mistakes to work on, individual nuances are less of an issue, IMO.