ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
So how do we train people in that skill?
How to improve musicality
- Thread starter JTh
- Start date
See Social Tango
The basic issue, which seems to be overlooked, is where that musicality is evident, and why.
We observe musicality in a rehearsed performance, or something choreographed, or maybe even an improvised performance to a well-known piece, but what does it mean in social AT? Sure, occasionally the ronda gets into sync, or maybe we experience some detachment or flow experience as a great experience, but is that 'musicality', either for the participants or any observers?
We take some random pair of social AT dancers. Was their tanda satisfying and musically interpretive for them? Did we observe that musicality? But their tanda is not a performance for us observers.
There are numerous videos of performances posted. They can be criticised for their musicality, technical content and interpretation. Are social AT dancers in the ronda seeking to emulate and achieve those standards?
For sure, I'd like to be able to dance that well. Maybe, eventually, one day in my dreams. In the meantime, in the absence of a lifetime of familiarity with AT music, I have to fall back on the basic structure and an occasional better interpretation of some piece with some moves at an appropriate time in that structure. I need some shortcuts in the time I have left; the book(s), the descriptions of orchestras and their key features, gaining familiarity with some music by listening, sometimes the lyrics, the videos, the sequences which seem to fit, etc, etc. And practice.
Very consistent with numerous followers saying similar about their BsAs experience.
I am no longer believer in different “styles”. All “styles” discussion is a noise that doesn’t add anything to dancing itself.
Yes!
Not surprising.
Hmm you mean milonga?
opendoor
Forum Master
Do you think it is a question of skills? I suspect it has got more to do with the mind set. I don't want to restrict myself in that way and would definitely have looked for a different location.
LadyLeader
Forum Master
Bailango
Given amount of training you have in tango and your understanding of it, I am curious what you are doing to improve the musicality or musical emotions in your dancing further. What are the methods you employ. In what way does coach help you, that you won’t be able to do yourself.
To write my comment has taken some time because I wanted to give you also the background for learning and developing intuitive musicality. This is just about my path but it maybe offer some possibilities for others too.
In my development the most important cornerstones have been the rhythm/melody sensing system, totally intuitive dance and feeling of meaningfulness. The first one has given me an object to work on, to develop, the second has limited my choices of training options because I want to keep that intuitive dance. The third I have used as my most sensitive tool to meter if I am relating to the music in a way right for my body and sensing system, for my musicality.
I am sure you have seen a video when a toddler is rocking to a song! My rocking to a radio tone is part of our family history, so I know even what a song it was! Today I am working to refine and develop that tool combining the auditive fragments to movement fragments at increasing precision and complexity.
During the first 10+ years my AT dancing was completely intuitive relying fully on the rhythm/melody sensing system going on in the background and I was feeling my way through the song. I am a matematician by training and way of life so the brain has been the king absoluta always. During the dance my body, especially my feet shouted to my brain: Shut up there, you don't know anything about this. We take the lead now! When the music started I moved on spot until I felt that my body has found the tune and then we took the first step and so on.
Because my dance was totally out of the usual brain control it gave me a strong feeling of magic happening during a tanda and I wanted to keep it in that way. I did not participate so much on usual musicality classes but I liked Amenabar's and Murat Erdemsel's way of teaching.
During the first years I was walking a lot to music at home, always alone. Sometimes I was exited and sometimes less so. One of the most important turning points for my dancing was the moment when I in the middle of a meaningless walk at home thought: I must be out of the music now! Since then the search and maintaining the feeling of meaningfulness during a dance and training has been my most reliable tool to direct my steps, my musicality.
Even if I always trust on my inner feeling I also search feedback from my dance partners, ask a music trained friend to watch my dance and ask a teacher for an opinion.
LadyLeader
Forum Master
About 10 years ago I run a few music workshops! I don't have any musical training but my partner, he had two; teacher training for an instrument and training for a composer. In the beginning of the first lesson we were standing in front of the group and we two a few meters apart. We started by telling that every participant has a spot somewhere between us two from nothing to a lot education, but all of us can dance and develop the musicality.
When we presented a new structure I told how does it feel for me and what made me to take the step. Then he explained the music with correct terms for them who wanted that. This set up gave these two groups equal opportunity to exist and to develop.
During the preparations we talked a lot and agreed about that the dancing was intuitive for both of us. He did not let his music knowledge organize the dance but let the intuitive rule during the tandas. It looked like our pista mode was similar but when we were analyzing music, had a problem with it, we solved it differently. He used his analytic music skills and I was feeling through the options during weight changes or something.
I really hope that in future the fully intuitive dancers get the guiding they need!
When we presented a new structure I told how does it feel for me and what made me to take the step. Then he explained the music with correct terms for them who wanted that. This set up gave these two groups equal opportunity to exist and to develop.
During the preparations we talked a lot and agreed about that the dancing was intuitive for both of us. He did not let his music knowledge organize the dance but let the intuitive rule during the tandas. It looked like our pista mode was similar but when we were analyzing music, had a problem with it, we solved it differently. He used his analytic music skills and I was feeling through the options during weight changes or something.
I really hope that in future the fully intuitive dancers get the guiding they need!
LadyLeader
Forum Master
When I choose activities for musicality the main goal is to have variety, to find as many different ways as possibly to focus on a song. Another principle is systematic returning activities. This one below is my favorite listening-set for a song and it takes about 8mins/5days per week. Then I let it rest a few weeks before it is activated again.
1. Draw what you hear. Murat Erdemsel and Vanessa Gauch has videos, material about that
*Has helped me to detect structures in a song
2. Wave the hands in the air
* Has helped me to pay attention to emotions and changes in intensity
3. When the video shows dancers, tap on what you hear and check if they act on the same musical structures.
* Sometimes shockingly different but I still like their dance!
I have asked a friend to watch my tandas and one message I got was that I did not detect longer structures. Therefore I listen songs at different speed. When played faster the structure is coming forward and slower makes it possibly to hear complicated details. Systematic returning activity is key here too!
These are some of the things I do on the way to enthusiastic feedback on my musicality!
1. Draw what you hear. Murat Erdemsel and Vanessa Gauch has videos, material about that
*Has helped me to detect structures in a song
2. Wave the hands in the air
* Has helped me to pay attention to emotions and changes in intensity
3. When the video shows dancers, tap on what you hear and check if they act on the same musical structures.
* Sometimes shockingly different but I still like their dance!
I have asked a friend to watch my tandas and one message I got was that I did not detect longer structures. Therefore I listen songs at different speed. When played faster the structure is coming forward and slower makes it possibly to hear complicated details. Systematic returning activity is key here too!
These are some of the things I do on the way to enthusiastic feedback on my musicality!
Certainly not to emulate. I believe I shouldn't criticize without at least trying to do better!
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
I do yes, at least partly. For some this learning can be intuitive, for others, maybe those of a more analytical bent, understanding how the music works will be helpful. Or a combination of both. But given the fact that so many people complain about it (its lack, really) and that there is no clearcut way to teach it, I'd say it's a skill, just like learning to dance. They are integrally related. So, musicality--by that we mostly mean musical interpretation. The question then becomes, how well does the musical interpretation manifested in the dance reflect the music itself?
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Short answer: Yes, I believe so. I've seen it happen (rarely) and participated in some rondas like that (also rarely), but when it happens you know it and the floor movement flows with the musical accompaniment.
I don't know how we could answer that without direct observation. And why would it have to be a performance? Are you implying that only formal performances are valid musical interpretations?
Unlikely, since they often specifically spurn or disregard performances by performers. I assume good dancers seek to emulate other good dancers in their peer group. Why dismiss their musicality out of hand? That seems odd to me given that many of those older dancers have been dancing for decades.
From my experiences talking to a lot of people about it, I think the biggest difference between people with trained listening skills and those without is that the people with trained listening skills perceive the music in much more detail (it's easy to focus on a specific layer and anticipate where lines are going) whereas those without tend to hear the music more as a unified mass.
The listening skills can be trained without needing to be a musician and developing methods for that is one of my current projects.
I can confirm that dancing in the moment is intuitive for me also. So musical knowledge doesn't spoil the experience. It's because we train things and then let the subconscious take care of them.
Tango Distance
Well-Known Member
Another way to learn things about musicality: As a leader, it has been interesting to start learning to follow. I can now "hear" the music the way someone else does.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
One should be careful about what one desires, especially from partners. More musicality indirectly means that you dance less at a milonga, at least if you are not the DJ yourself.
I doubt that I still dance with those who wanted me to be more musical back then, with the exception of my girlfriend.
LadyLeader
Forum Master
I wonder if we could call your way of hearing horizontal? When you follow a music line you choose a level and stick to it, advancing on a timeline until next option arises.
In that context my hearing could be described as vertical because I react on the most prominent/interesting element among all sounding details right NOW. If a theme or something is prominent for a while it looks like I am following a line but it is/was a series of independent spots. I used other ways to create continuity in the dance itself.
I was aware of this instant hearing of mine quite early and described it as if it was a *tone head on a tape recorder*. This has changed so today I don't really see how my hearing actually works. I can notice some more awareness of horizontal structures though.
My hearing!
Last edited:
LadyLeader
Forum Master
Ojojoj not really!Hmm you mean milonga?