How to improve musicality

[LadyLeader]

I was looking up local tango calendar for the day. This video was posted in a workshop announcement by these visiting instructors.

I like the way he dances and how he interpretes musicality as a lead. I think I dance very similarly, except I will not open up the embrace as much as he does. Any critics of his style?

Other thing I liked is that despite a show performance they are moving/traveling in a ronda. Most of how they are dancing can easily be done when dancing socially.

Their dance is extreamly close to each and every note. If you look the video muted and have the note sheet in your hand you can easily know how the dance is advancing.

I think many dancers could easily understand how they think, what they hear and how they translate the music to steps. So they could make the music/step connection visible for many students strugling with it.

This performance did not catch me! They have a lot in YT and some are more to my taste.

To push my musical development forward I use videos witch keep me returning, reviewing again and again. Those dances have something, some aspects connecting to very deep within me and those aspects I want to develop further!

 

[Bailango]

I don't really like this. Am not inspired by it, aside from some interesting interpretations of the music, and do not wish to dance like this.

What is that you don't particularly like. I am not referring to the performance. Only to his lead and styling. Some of which he is overdoing.

 

[Bailango]

This performance doesn't inspire me. I had to force myself not to switch off after 5 seconds: the earthiness is missing, both dance into the air, not into the floor. There is little projection. Neither of them really employ their lumbar spine. This makes them look dancing rectangular. Furthermore, they cannot abstract from the music.

Thanks. Interesting comments. Especially about the quality of earthiness. Do you have any video examples that according to you displays earthiness in tango dancing. Will be interesting comparison. By not into the floor, I take that to mean they are not grounded.

What do you mean by "abstract from the music".

 

[Bailango]

To push my musical development forward I use videos witch keep me returning, reviewing again and again.

Can you please post a few examples of those videos. Thanks.

 

[LadyLeader]

Can you please post a few examples of those videos. Thanks.

(When I push I choose a video and watch it every day for a week, leave it and after some time I have a new week!)

Chicho & Eugenia, an old one!


Fausto e Stephanie, milonga (click on the picture - fb opens)


Gianni Y Marina Tango, another vals (click on the picture - fb opens)


Almost everything from these couples
Joachim and Michelle
Fernandes and Ariadna

This gives you a glimpse about my inner preferences for musicality, some aspects of it. I think the difficulty is that you and me need to track similar aspects on a video to understand each other and how often does that happen!

 

[pianistamediano]

Any critics of his style?

I will forgive him for being slightly behind the music at times, because it is live music after all. His style seems flat somehow; I don't think he pays enough attention to the dynamics, the variance in textures, and the timbre of the different instruments.

 

[LadyLeader]

Can you please post a few examples of those videos. Thanks.

(When I push I choose a video and watch it every day for a week, leave it and after some time I have a new week!)

Chicho & Eugenia, an old one!


Fausto e Stephanie, milonga (click on the picture - fb opens)


Gianni Y Marina Tango, another vals (click on the picture - fb opens)


Almost everything from these couples
Joachim and Michelle
Fernandes and Ariadna

This gives you a glimpse about my inner preferences for musicality, some aspects of it. I think the difficulty is that you and me need to track similar aspects on a video to understand each other and how often does that happen!

Sorry for the terrible black reply! It doesn't look inviting
I try better when back

 

[opendoor]

..Interesting comments.

Bailango, I do my best!

..Do you have any video examples that according to you displays earthiness..

For instance Noelia and Carlos in one of their last performances together.

...By "not into the floor", I take that to mean they are not grounded..

Exactly. But as a scientist I find that touching the ground already qualifies for dancing "grounded". Real "earthiness" requires plowing 2 inches below the surface of the floor. This "earthiness" is provided in the sacroiliac joint. The dancers in your vid are blocked in this body part. But if you set the vid of Noelia and Carlos to slow motion, you can clearly see from 0:48 onwards how Noelia's ilium bone shifts against her lower spine. This is connected with long strides, leg extension and a high degree of projection. Between 0:26 and 0:32 you can attend a short master class in projection, by the way. The absence of "earthiness" makes you look angular and the walk is bobbing on the surface. This seems anything but smooth.

What do you mean by "abstract from the music".

They map every tone, every rhythmic pattern of the leading voice. Something like that makes me very nervous when I look at it. Good musicality is expressed in the fact that a leader can combine individual notes into patterns and phrases. In this context, "abstracting" also means seeing through the structure of the piece of music. But on the contrary, the couple your vid is being pushed along by the band like floating in a river with a strong current. (And between you and me, I would advise against attending such classes).

 

[Miradamiranda]

I was looking up local tango calendar for the day. This video was posted in a workshop announcement by these visiting instructors.

I like the way he dances and how he interpretes musicality as a lead. I think I dance very similarly, except I will not open up the embrace as much as he does. Any critics of his style?

Other thing I liked is that despite a show performance they are moving/traveling in a ronda. Most of how they are dancing can easily be done when dancing socially.

Well, there is humor. And she is all smiles because she is having fun. She is feeling she is contributing to the dance and not feeling like a puppet where every move is controlled by the guy. I can relate. He gives her space to do her thing, and I don’t think she overdoes it tooooo much, just a bit. I prefer her type of ornaments that fit the music to the kind of exaggerated cutesy adornos that so many followers do, thrown in anywhere and everywhere because they think they look more skilled or more feminine.

That said, there’s also a lot of Mickey-Mouse’ing. Having the musical skills to illustrate every little detail does not equate having musical taste. Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. I think he overdoes it. It becomes gimmicky.
Finding a balance between on one extreme doing too much detailed cartoonish ‘painting the music’ and on the other hand still feeling that you are illustrating the essence of the music, or pointing out some music element that’s in the background, can be hard to find. It’s something I give a lot of thought.

Compared to most followers in my scene, I tend to point out a lot of details in the music. My style leans a bit towards this lady’s in that respect. But I try to do it only with those partners who can handle it and not get confused by it. And I try really hard not to overdo it. But sometimes it’s hard not to do something that falls easy to me (because I can), when some others barely can step precisely on the beat.
Taste-wise, it’s a similar issue as recently discussed comparing the two pianists’ in-you-face or more subtle interpretations.

Although the style of this performance of this couple is not necessarily my taste, I would however not shy away from a workshop with them. I’m sure they have some interesting insights about musicality.

Anyhow, I’d surely have a blast dancing with him. It would be a nice change of pace.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

What is that you don't particularly like. I am not referring to the performance. Only to his lead and styling. Some of which he is overdoing.

I dislike the way he positions his partner in front of him, the absence of an abrazo, and the way he steps. It really doesn't "feel" like tango to me. I know they're skilled technically, but at times it feels too precious and, at other times, it seems to fall flat. I wonder if, given their size, especially his, they couldn't have approached this differently.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

For instance Noelia and Carlos in one of their last performances together.

Really nice. Carlitos is superbly grounded. One of the things I admire about him most.

 

[JohnEm]

Bailango, I do my best!

For instance Noelia and Carlos in one of their last performances together.

Exactly. But as a scientist I find that touching the ground already qualifies for dancing "grounded". Real "earthiness" requires plowing 2 inches below the surface of the floor. This "earthiness" is provided in the sacroiliac joint. The dancers in your vid are blocked in this body part. But if you set the vid of Noelia and Carlos to slow motion, you can clearly see from 0:48 onwards how Noelia's ilium bone shifts against her lower spine. This is connected with long strides, leg extension and a high degree of projection. Between 0:26 and 0:32 you can attend a short master class in projection, by the way. The absence of "earthiness" makes you look angular and the walk is bobbing on the surface. This seems anything but smooth.

They map every tone, every rhythmic pattern of the leading voice. Something like that makes me very nervous when I look at it. Good musicality is expressed in the fact that a leader can combine individual notes into patterns and phrases. In this context, "abstracting" also means seeing through the structure of the piece of music. But on the contrary, the couple your vid is being pushed along by the band like floating in a river with a strong current. (And between you and me, I would advise against attending such classes).

Faced with this incessant analysis of what is a typically physically tormented and physically damaging performance, yet you compliment it, it really should be time for me to unsubscribe.

I want to see no more and hear no more. This is not an example that social and/or amateur dancers should be encouraged to copy. I could write a critique at length but life is too short to waste on this.

Fundamentally this thread from start to finish encapsulates the damage to Tango by confusing
contrived performance with Tango as a social improvised dance.
There is nothing here, nor in this entire thread, to emulate.

 

[opendoor]

..yet you compliment it.. I could write a critique at length but life is too short to waste on this.. this thread from start to finish encapsulates the damage to Tango..

Interview with Noelia Hurtado in La Gazzettango:

Gz: ¿Qué te cansa en el medio del Tango?
NH: Me cansa el « cholulismo » y lo no real… también me cansa la gente que se relaciona con el tango (baile,enseñanza,organización de eventos) pero que no son apasionados con el tango y su cultura, sino, con otros propósitos.Gz: ¿Dónde y con quién descubriste el tango?NH: Con quien? Con mi papá y mis hermanos. La primera vez fue en Paternal ,mi barrio de entonces, a los 7-8 años. Y después (cuando fue la definitiva) en Devoto, a los 12.
Gz: ¿El futuro del tango, según vos, por dónde pasa?
NH: Ufff ni idea, después de tantos cambios no sabría hacia dónde va… pero espero que siga con un buen abrazo y con ambos roles activos!
Gz: Un buen recuerdo y un mal recuerdo.
NH: Un buen recuerdo? Imposible! Tengo muchos! Cada uno de mis logros personales en el tango, cada tango bailado con viejos milongueros que me dejaron tanto, y cada tango bailado con personas que admiro.
Mal recuerdo? Mmm lamentablemente algunos también…. siempre relacionados a la gente que te tira mala onda… por no recurrir a la expresión popular de ML

jajaja
Gz: ¿3 tangos, 3 orquestas, 3 bailarines o 3 musicos ?
NH: 3 tangos? Pfff varios pero bueno los primeros 3 q se me vienen: con todo mi corazón, rebeldía, todo termino. 3 orquestas: Troilo, d’Arienzo, Pugliese. 3 bailarines o músicos: cuentan cantantes? Polaco Goyeneche, Geraldine Rojas, Carlos Gavito.
Gz: ¿Cuál es la mejor manera de terminar una milonga ? a) con los pies doloridos de tanto bailar. b) buscando un after. c) desayunando. d) con alguien e) otra, precisar.
NH: yyyy…. buscando un after en grupo!

 

[pianistamediano]

NH: Me cansa el « cholulismo » y lo no real…

Yes, there is a particularly insidious obsession with performers/maestros/whatever that poisons dancers with superficiality and an overwhelming desire to perform on the pista with no regard for dancers around them. Why can't they do it on a stage instead?!?

It's funny that she should mention that though, because without admirers or dancers who idolise, most people in her profession would not be able to make a living out of performing/touring/teaching tango. Only the most famous (or most adept at marketing) like Chicho or herself would survive.

Also, what a surprise, she names Goyeneche, Rojas, and Gavito. And the three favourite orquestas for performers, naturally.

 

[LadyLeader]

In this context, "abstracting" also means seeing through the structure of the piece of music.

I am grateful for how you form this!
Music has had different roles during my years in tango and the evolution has pushed the interpretation more and more to a note by note fashion. This development will hit the dead end and there will be a new music/movement relationship. I would say that one day some genius dancers start to dance the ideas they see behind the structure. (like Picassos portraits! )