How to teach floor craft ?

[opendoor]

..You have a ..unusual learning path and many times such ..unusual insights.
I am interested in the reasons behind your rule..

Sorry LadyLeader, it was wrong to speak of "a rule". It rather was a spontaneous window to my soul that had opened by mistake. Step by step, sequentially. In principle, I am of the opinion that we do not need trainers, coaches or instructors to learn tango. This does not mean that these people do not have particular knowledge and skills that I lack. Rather, it means that the student makes the curriculum, writes the syllabus. When things get stuck, he gets help from someone who can solve the problem. This approach is called constructivist. Basically that's how I learned tango, in other words, I taught myself. Now to the point that the teacher should pick the student. As indicated above, this was a very personal statement. I have gone through life without a Guru. But believe me, I've always wanted one. In 1992 it almost happend. I picked up the famous philosopher Ivan Illich from the airport to give a lecture at University. We started talking in the car, I opened my mouth and after two words Illich said: You are a teacher. He recognized me, I became his indoor student. Unfortunately, he died of cancer shortly afterwards. Illich did not leave a school of thought, his students dispersed.
I attended many workshops with famous tango dancers. Unfortunately nobody recognized me. I was never interested in knowledge and skills; I was interested in being accepted into the succession. For many years my goal was to become a tango teacher, and a very good one, of course. But I stayed homeless. You know that knee osteoarthritis finally prevented my career as a tango teacher.

 

[Rabbit]

This is why I think master-master relationships are more useful in tango. Where I live, certain teachers work with each other at a very advanced level to expand what it is they can explain to their students. No money changes hands – it's a collegial exchange of favors. Everybody has an incentive to stick to it because it will make them better at their trade and build stronger bridges to their peers.

I'm not sure about the incentives. Would you share your best secrets with the local competition? Or use a master-apprentice model with a talented newcomer with the potential to surpass yourself? It would make more sense to collaborate over the internet with someone based in another city.

The thing that's most wrong, I think, is that – at least in Western society (and perhaps elsewhere . . . but I live in Canada, not China or Nigeria or whatever) – the buyer is traditionally in the "master" position and the vendor in the "servant" position. The person spending the money is in charge, they're right, they're entitled to request that the thing they're buying be just so. The person taking the money is supposed to smile, nod, and let the customer be right.

I don't think it is a question of right or wrong - the customer is paying for a service, whether they get the most out of it is up to them.

 

[Cabbit]

The thing that's most wrong, I think, is that – at least in Western society (and perhaps elsewhere . . . but I live in Canada, not China or Nigeria or whatever) – the buyer is traditionally in the "master" position and the vendor in the "servant" position. The person spending the money is in charge, they're right, they're entitled to request that the thing they're buying be just so. The person taking the money is supposed to smile, nod, and let the customer be right.

I think that money serves only to buy time. Time can be bought, knowledge and respect earned. Applies to tango and other learning situations too. If you are paying someone to teach you while considering them to be in a 'servant' position, for me that relationship is off to a bad start.

I might be old fashioned.

 

[JournalInTime]

If you are paying someone to teach you while considering them to be in a 'servant' position, for me that relationship is off to a bad start.

I might be old fashioned.

We agree here. I think that's terrible, really. However, it's increasingly the way of things.

When I was at the university, I had a family lawyer call me up and threaten me with action if I "destroyed the career" of a student by awarding a bad mark. First, the bad mark was merited – the student was a dud. Next, it was a mark in a first-year survey course, which is hardly the stuff of careers. Anyway, I refused to budge, but I did take it up with faculty. They informed me that there's more of this every year . . . it's just covered up.

When I was working part-time at the tango studio, I ran into the same attitude. People almost wanted to be guaranteed X steps in Y months, and to be able to dance with "anybody at the milonga" within time T at the latest. I'm not lying when I say this next part: A few people wanted their money back on the grounds that nobody at the milonga invited them, and therefore they were "taught wrong."

No, really.

So, I'm old-fashioned, too. I have no truck with "entitlement culture." Some people do start out privileged – whether that means "rich," "pretty," or "in great physical shape" – and we can't ignore the reality that people who lack those advantages might never overcome their disadvantages through hard work. But they'll get nowhere if they do no work.

Unfortunately, what I want has nothing to do with what I see at milongas. That includes people who believe that paying at the door entitles them to the whole floor and even to be invited to dance no matter how (in)capable they are.

 

[itwillhappen]

I think it is important that a teacher draws attention to a peculiarity of tango: that the follower must go backwards with the confidence that there will be no collisions, often with their eyes closed. And that is why incidents are interpreted as "injuries" that you would not even notice e.g. while climbing.

 

[TTanguero]

If you are paying someone to teach you while considering them to be in a 'servant' position, for me that relationship is off to a bad start.

For me, it's a fascinating mix of the two. As the student, I am the 'boss' when it comes to setting the objective for a private lesson. I tell the teacher what it is I am looking to achieve, what I would like their help with. They are the 'boss' when it comes to telling me what I need to do to achieve it. With the best teachers, I trust them when what they have me work on seems to have little to do with my objective because they have proven through previous lessons that they can see better than I what the underlying issue is.

 

[Cabbit]

Wow @ whole post.

Here if the student thinks they have been wronged on the final exam, they can request to retake the exam in front of an impartial committee. It is extremely rare, but still an option. This is why i like written exams. Tedious to grade, but also a proof, should there be any doubt about the final mark later.

On a university, I can see the logic of this unfortunate behaviour, people are under pressure and sometimes they handle it poorly.

But having the attitude you described in a dance studio, for an activity that should be fun and relaxing, that is just silly. Even worse, it shows some serious underlying issues.

 

[Numawan]

For me, it's a fascinating mix of the two. As the student, I am the 'boss' when it comes to setting the objective for a private lesson. I tell the teacher what it is I am looking to achieve, what I would like their help with. They are the 'boss' when it comes to telling me what I need to do to achieve it. With the best teachers, I trust them when what they have me work on seems to have little to do with my objective because they have proven through previous lessons that they can see better than I what the underlying issue is.

That is also the way I approach private lessons. It isn't a one-way street. It is an interaction. Sometimes I am quite specific about what I want to get from private lessons ("I want to learn colgadas" for example). At other times, my teachers are also involved into setting the objective ("let's check up on this and see what I need to work on").

 

[TTanguero]

That is also the way I approach private lessons. It isn't a one-way street. It is an interaction. Sometimes I am quite specific about what I want to get from private lessons ("I want to learn colgadas" for example). At other times, my teachers are also involved into setting the objective ("let's check up on this and see what I need to work on").

Yes, that's how things work with my current teacher. I gave him my over-arching objectives ('Discover variations on things I already know, improve my technique for the fundamental movements') and most weeks I will give him a topic I'd like to work on (eg. Colgada type movements) and he will then create a lesson to suit, which sometimes directly addresses the topic, and sometimes approaches it from a tangent whose relationship only becomes clear in the final part of the lesson.

Other weeks, I just put myself in his hands and give him free reign as to what we work on.

The mix works well for me.

 

[Cabbit]

I gave my current teacher complete freedom in what we are to be working on, and that is working out great so far.

Every once in awhile, we have a talk on where I am, where he thinks my dance is headed, how I feel about it, and what he thinks we should focus on. Sometimes the learning process takes a detour based on something he observed me do on a milonga, or by a specific question i have, but that isn't so common. This has been made possible in big part by us having similar ideas about the hierarchy of the parts that make tango good. With some other teachers, I would go and insist on learning something very specific that they are known for.

 

[TTanguero]

This has been made possible in big part by us having similar ideas about the hierarchy of the parts that make tango good.

Yes, I think that's pretty much my number one criteria for choosing a teacher.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Yes, but a practica isn't a milonga. And some have degenerated to the practicalonga (which has its place). I agree that a practica ought to be the correct place.

As has been discussed many times, there's a real dearth of real practicas in some locations.

...

But, in a social dance with no official standards, and no history of codigos, that's today's world. Anyone can proclaim themselves a master and an expert, or to be 'good enough'; it's only experience and diversity which shows up the standards.

How do we check people who just turn up?

Yes, some practicas have become something more, but that's OK. It simply means some of the people can dance casually and others can work on their dance. The lack of formality is what makes it work.

As for the dearth in some locations, that can be a problem, but all you need is a studio and a DJ.

I agree that you can't predict who will turn up or how they will dance, but certain milongas develop their own reputation, which is a form of self-selection in terms of who attends.

There are codigos, however, and a history of them, but they have to be learned and teachers have to inform students about the basics (and students have to make an effort to learn them as well). I think the rest comes from practice and from observing, and from study.

As for "checking people," well, you don't and I don't believe you should. You keep an eye on them. If they really cannot dance or have no experience at all with social tango, the organizer should politely ask them to leave the floor and tell them where they can study. If they're fledgling dancers, they should observe more than dance, and stick to the center of the floor if they do venture forth into the maelstrom.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Sometimes I am quite specific about what I want to get from private lessons ("I want to learn colgadas" for example).

Hmm. Not a bad idea, but what if you can't? What if you ask the teacher to teach you something you are incapable of accomplishing? There's only so much a teach can do in those cases. They cannot teach you to become Carlito (of Noelia and Carlitos) or Noelia, for that matter. Better, I feel, is to work with a teacher to refine what you already can do and slowly expand your range of possibilities (that can be through musicality, for example). As the saying goes, "you can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" (and no personal reflection intended at all).

 

[lucia_l]

The servant/master dichotomy is interesting.

Hmm. Not a bad idea, but what if you can't? What if you ask the teacher to teach you something you are incapable of accomplishing?

I don't consider teachers either servants or masters. I decide the overall umbrella of

• what I want to learn. (Rhythm, smooth).
• what I would like to do (currently, I do want to do some pro-am competitions but I also value social.)
• how much time and money I will spend. (Including practice time.)

Within that framework, my teacher gets to decide what we focus on in lessons. They need to assess me; they need to evaluate what I can do. They need to think about what's next. It works well.

If I felt things were not advancing my preferences, I would tell my teacher. If my preferences changed (e.g. a sudden desire to focus on sensual bachatta!) I'd tell them. If they couldn't adapt, I might be in the market for a new teacher. Alternately, I might do as some on this board do: have two teachers.

Two teachers can sometimes balance each other out. I think someone hear has "clean precise pro" and her other pro who is more "lets just dance". I can't remember the name. Another one has "pro" and "secret pro". I'm kinda sorta back to two teachers as an idea, though you need to find two who don't contradict each other in any fundamental way. If I suddenly won the lotto and could take 20 lessons a week, I almost certainly would have two teachers. One would be "competition oriented" the other would be "social and practice oriented". Both would have to be good at teaching and good enough at dancing.

Neither teacher would be a "servant" who I dictate to or order around; Neither would be a "master" who decrees what I must do. They are private teachers of elective studies.

 

[Rabbit]

Hmm. Not a bad idea, but what if you can't? What if you ask the teacher to teach you something you are incapable of accomplishing? There's only so much a teach can do in those cases. They cannot teach you to become Carlito (of Noelia and Carlitos) or Noelia, for that matter.

In that case, a good teacher should tell you that you're not really ready for X yet, you can try if you want to see how it feels like but it won't be easy, and propose an easier alternative that will build towards your goal.