I started Latin dancing because I wanted to be able to dance like this

[Bailango]

What I mean is some things would not be acceptable in a ballroom dance competition situation. Yet the dancing is so beautiful.

But isn’t that apples and oranges? That’s like saying apple is tasty but it won’t taste like orange.

How does it being beautiful has to do with what is acceptable in ballroom dance competition? There also can be (and is) totally improvised social dancing that is beautiful when done by two skilled partners, that would not be acceptable in ballroom dance competition.

Other than your admiration for the dancing in that video, are you suggesting that ballroom competitive rules should change or “beautiful dancing” should be a criteria or this fails the current “beautiful dancing” criteria in ballroom competition or you wish aesthetics of ballroom dancing needs to change to look more like this?

Since you have repeated this a couple of times or more, I still can’t get what point you are trying to make. Other than you were mesmerized by this dancing and it is unlike ballroom.

 

[Bailango]

Another question is whether it's possible to practice several styles of a dance independently. One style for the medal, another for expression and musicality?

Salsa dancers do that. One style for competition. Other for social dancing. Not all. But some do.

Some of the tango mundial couples do that too.

 

[opendoor]

..Does it take skill and talent to do that? Absolutely. Can a ballroom dancer do that? No. Can a social dancer do that? No.

You've already answered yourself, why this performance caught his attention: the way the moves are presented in relation to the camera, and the exaggerated styling, create kind of a transitional state between the worlds.

To be clear, DanceMentor will not register for the next course in cuban dancing. He isn't interested in the way a few remaining 80-year-olds still dance authentic Son on Fridays in a run-down Casino Deportivo.

 

[vit]

This is essentially a stylish presentation of what is a street dance. Don’t both stand alone on their own ?

I'm not very sure about that ... music might have originated somewhere outside towns, but dance probably developed mostly in towns. It's just something that was danced in usual places where people dance socially, a kind of Cuban version of ballroom dance. Just this is social form of it (or presentation of how it was danced with some modern twist) and not competitive one

On salsaforums, people usually referred to salsa as street dance for some reason - though 99% of it was developed in dance studios ... so it's just another form of ballroom ... just like sensual bachata is other form of ballroom dance ... just not "international" or "american" ballroom

 

[vit]

Salsa dancers do that. One style for competition. Other for social dancing. Not all. But some do.

Sure they are. For a few years, we had a foreign dancer that was competing in salsa with his partner as pro (was actually quite on the top). And also competed in pro-am salsa with a local girl. Their choreographies where performance oriented and pro choreography was much more demanding than pro-am

But on his salsa, bachata and zouk classes he taught ordinary social versions of it ... and also danced socially sometimes ... Just like his pro-am partner danced (and is still dancing) entirely social salsa with me, she doesn't expect me to do lifts and similar things with her like that guy. Also danced socially with his pro partner once - wasn't much different than with other girls either except that she had about 3x the muscle mass of them ....

 

[opendoor]

..On salsaforums, people usually referred to salsa as street dance.. though 99% of it was developed in dance studios ... so it's just another form of ballroom ...

A solution based on conveniently redefining the term "ballroom" won't help us. You might recall that two years ago I discussed this concept at length with fiesta , without reaching any agreement.
Fact is:
-The dancers of the couple in question are graduates of a state academy for folk dance (minor subject ballet).
-Before their international careers, both dancers worked in tourism.
-In Cuba, people dance reggaeton and related styles in the streets.
-Cubans tend to view the salsa styles danced in Europe, North America, and in Cuba with tourists as a form of academic ballroom.
-Traditional dances like bolero, danzón, and son are still danced in Cuba, but not in the streets. You have to look very closely to find them.

 

[opendoor]

..had a foreign dancer that was competing in salsa with his partner as pro.. And also competed in pro-am salsa with a local girl..

I would rather speak of "ballroomization". Here, we must distinguish between two paths that lead to the same goal:
-On the one hand, there is the assimilation of what was once a socially danced street dance under the umbrella of a ballroom organization.
-On the other hand, there is the commercialization of aformer street dance through own efforts.

By this, I mean:
- the emergence of a leisure industry: festivals, competitions, dance holidays.
- the development of curricula, syllabi, and teacher training programs.

 

[vit]

I would rather speak of "ballroomization". Here, we must distinguish between two paths that lead to the same goal:
-On the one hand, there is the assimilation of what was once a socially danced street dance under the umbrella of a ballroom organization.
-On the other hand, there is the commercialization of aformer street dance through own efforts.

By this, I mean:
- the emergence of a leisure industry: festivals, competitions, dance holidays.
- the development of curricula, syllabi, and teacher training programs.

I think we are talking about more or less the same thing

My point of that reply was just that one dancer can dance the same genre (salsa in this case) socially, pro-am and pro and he will dance differently the same genre, depending is it performance/competition or social dancing. Also, there will be further differentiation depending who is he dancing with socially, so it can be from very casual to quite involved dancing bordering performance (called social performance sometimes)

It's not that common that competitive ballroom dancer will dance socially, but if it happens, it's similar - he doesn't need straight legs and upright posture if dancing BR rumba socially for instance - it can actually look similar to son demo from the 1st clip, part of the figures is the same anyway, so nothing wrong with it ... as long as his partner is cooperating. If I dance cha cha cha on salsa party for instance, I intentionally try to make it look less ballroomy

 

[Bailango]

I'm not very sure about that ... music might have originated somewhere outside towns, but dance probably developed mostly in towns. It's just something that was danced in usual places where people dance socially, a kind of Cuban version of ballroom dance. Just this is social form of it (or presentation of how it was danced with some modern twist) and not competitive one

On salsaforums, people usually referred to salsa as street dance for some reason - though 99% of it was developed in dance studios ... so it's just another form of ballroom ... just like sensual bachata is other form of ballroom dance ... just not "international" or "american" ballroom

Formal and didactic training (inside studio walls) of social dances like salsa, zouk, bachata, Kizomba, AT, Lindy hop, WCS, etc doesn’t make them another form of ballroom. (I have excluded sensual because it is a secular creation).

These social dances aren’t codified. Nor are they choreographed from social dancing perspective. They are primary social dances where any one of any skill level dance with each other. Competitions and performances are an after thought where only the ambitious try to participate. They make up less than 1% of 1%. You could go to these social dances without having taken a class too. Needless to say they are improvised.

Most of these dances are culturally associated and still have strong cultural affinity. Didactic training others not from within the cultural settings came about due to the popularity or demand.

You could argue waltz (a random example from ballroom) is similar. And make a case the same cultural origins can apply to origins of ballroom dances. There may be some place where more non-BR people dance waltz than BR dancers. Or are there waltz socials at the same level of popularity, frequency, and reach as the social dances(mentioned) where each has its own vibrant community?

A lot of people without formal training still dance salsa or semba or bachata at social gatherings, cultural festivities, and sometimes literally in the streets - makes them a street dance. Hip hop is also a street dance. That now it is taught in studios doesn’t make it a formal dance like ballet or contemporary. Formal and non-formal dances often borrow from each other. That’s part of evolution in dancing. It still doesn’t take away the line dividing formal dances for which you have to go to school and dedicate significant resources and informal ones. Same with the street dances. At one end you have waltz (culturally more of a relic now and primary a BR dance) and at the other end you have salsa or bachata which still preserve a strong cultural affiliation including a lot more non-trained dancers than trained. The number of studio trained salsa dancers pale in comparison to vernacular Latino dancers spread across carribeans, Latin America and North America. In between these two extremes of the spectrum is AT. A strong cultural affiliation, a social dance, not BR (though it gave rise to BR Tango), but even in Argentina, only those trained in it go to milongas. Unlike salsa with average Latino, an average Argentinian is unlikely to know how to dance tango. Most don’t. Viewed from its historical evolution AT can’t be called a street dance like salsa, bachata or hiphop (non partner dance form can be). Neither can it be called another form of Ballroom. I haven’t heard any AT dancers call it a street dance. It is considered social dance. While salsa is both a street dance and a social dance.

P.S. 99% of salsa was not developed in dance studios. Not even 50%.

 

[Bailango]

If I dance cha cha cha on salsa party for instance, I intentionally try to make it look less ballroomy

Diverting from the main topic:

Cha Cha at salsa parties clears the floor because half the dancers are reluctant to dance (saying they don’t know how to dance). It is like a milonga tanda at AT. Sidebar - it is very easy to dance milonga to cha cha. Hence sometimes only one or two cha cha gets played at salsa party.

Even a hint of BR style cha cha at a salsa party is an eye sore . The best cha cha and boogalo dancers (which gets played at salsa as often as cha cha) usually spend more time dancing apart/solo than partnered moves. A better salsa dancer you are the more you dance cha cha apart. It also requires more musicality in the movement to dance it apart. Most people here won’t understand what I am saying so I will post a video of two of the best in business:


That’s a boogaloo number and they bring some funk into their dance (for those familiar with funk). It gives an example of how differently cha cha or boogaloo is danced by salsa dancers at a salsa party. An average salsa dancer dancing cha cha won’t be half as good.

 

[vit]

Formal and didactic training (inside studio walls) of social dances like salsa, zouk, bachata, Kizomba, AT, Lindy hop, WCS, etc doesn’t make them another form of ballroom. (I have excluded sensual because it is a secular creation).

These social dances aren’t codified. Nor are they choreographed from social dancing perspective. They are primary social dances where any one of any skill level dance with each other. Competitions and performances are an after thought where only the ambitious try to participate. They make up less than 1% of 1%. You could go to these social dances without having taken a class too. Needless to say they are improvised ...

From this discussion , I would omit ballet, contemporary and similar genres that are not danced socially at all

I intentionally did some stretch saying that salsa and bachata are just other forms of ballroom. But there are similarities

As about salsa and bachata, I had in mind international scene (almost all members of Salsaforums that I mentioned are part of that) and not dancing in latin countries that is much less formal I suppose. Those people learn social dancing on the classes not that different than ballroom. They dance them on similar places big enough to host the events

I agree that there is a difference in codification. In both salsa and bachata (WCS being similar) there is no clearly defined set of basic moves like in ballroom - which was/is actually the biggest problem for me - spent lots of time trying to figure out a set of moves that will make core of my dancing. Which is, on the other side, good for business, as people spend much more time on the classes than it would be necessary so instructors have more job. However, some teachers were much "better" in this regard than others and at the end, there is some set of basic moves most people are using, just it's hard to figure it out. Cuban salsa/casino is better in this regard, as there is relatively large number of basic moves - many of them similar to those in BR rumba/cha cha cha btw ....

As about competitions ... on last (sensual) bachata congress/festival I was actually quite surprised; though main point of JnJ is some entertainment for people that are not competing, competitors actually took that quite seriously. There were some from my area, they had quite serios trainings for that. There was a warm up before the competition in the lobby, competitors were practicing moves among each other, trying to figure out what to lead with whom, prepare followers for that etc ... and dance quality at competition was actually better than expected ... I filmed several heats of competition. Most leaders actually had their choreographies which they used with different followers with some ad-hoc adjustments - there was actually not that much improvisation as one would think ... so in fact not that differrent from BR competition though technically not at that level

I'm aware that salsa, bachata and AT dancers wouldn't like to be called just another kind of ballroom either, but - there are similarities among those communities

 

[vit]

Cha Cha at salsa parties clears the floor because half the dancers are reluctant to dance (saying they don’t know how to dance). It is like a milonga tanda at AT. Sidebar - it is very easy to dance milonga to cha cha. Hence sometimes only one or two cha cha gets played at salsa party.

Even a hint of BR style cha cha at a salsa party is an eye sore . The best cha cha and boogalo dancers (which gets played at salsa as often as cha cha) usually spend more time dancing apart/solo than partnered moves. A better salsa dancer you are the more you dance cha cha apart. It also requires more musicality in the movement to dance it apart. Most people here won’t understand what I am saying so I will post a video of two of the best in business:


That’s a boogaloo number and they bring some funk into their dance (for those familiar with funk). It gives an example of how differently cha cha or boogaloo is danced by salsa dancers at a salsa party. An average salsa dancer dancing cha cha won’t be half as good.

This differs among venues I suppose

In my area, at least half of salsa dancers actually know at least basic BR cha cha cha step and some underarm turn. I actually try dancing it similar to cuban salsa or son - like on one video that a guy from Cuba sent me from their private party ... still using similar figures common to BR and cuban version, just without ballroom arms and those things. Frankie's version I don't like, can't help about that ...

Of course, if I dance it with ex BR competitor that happens to come to salsa party, then we do it BR way and don't care about possibility of causing an eye sore ... actually a few times some people took the phones and filmed us ...

 

[opendoor]

Cha Cha at salsa parties clears the floor because half the dancers ..don’t know how to dance..

Cha cha chá is danced on2 (contratiempo). This is a great advantage: as a rather mediocre stylist, I became immediately visible on the dance floor and was perceived as an "advanced" dancer!

..dancing apart/solo.. requires more musicality in the movement... Most people here won’t understand what I am saying..

I can fully agree with you. In the tango forum, I was repeatedly criticized and punished for such a statement: Back then I said that close embrace is trivial, open hold is the challenge, and solo dancing is true mastery. I'm so glad that someone finally agrees with me against the general trend! Thx, Bailango !

 

[Pryn]

Most of these dances are culturally associated and still have strong cultural affinity. Didactic training others not from within the cultural settings came about due to the popularity or demand....
A lot of people without formal training still dance salsa or semba or bachata at social gatherings, cultural festivities, and sometimes literally in the streets - makes them a street dance...

Cha Cha at salsa parties clears the floor because half the dancers are reluctant to dance (saying they don’t know how to dance).

These are similar to my personal experiences as well. I've watched the floor clear around me during cha-cha and Tango.

Cha-Cha...I will freestyle solo because there are rarely leaders present who know how to dance it. Yes, the phones will come out... No, I don't normally dance the ballroom version of Cha-Cha at a salsa social because of the stigma.

Tango...I would usually exit the floor and wait for the next dance. Unless a ballroom friend is there and asks. Tango is usually a good break for buying a drink, snack or a restroom break due to the limited number of people who actually know how to dance it.

 

[vit]

In the tango forum, I was repeatedly criticized and punished for such a statement: Back then I said that close embrace is trivial, open hold is the challenge, and solo dancing is true mastery. I'm so glad that someone finally agrees with me against the general trend! Thx, Bailango !

While not participating in AT, I think that I understand what you are talking about. In my opinion, solo dancing is both harder and easier than couple dancing

Solo dancing is harder because you rely solely on yourself - your balance, your ability to move, your interpretation of music. When dancing socially (salsa, bachata, zouk ...) , I intentionally try relaxing arms of followers to encourage them to dance themselves instead of relying on me steering them and helping their balance. And even those that actually have a good balance have some problems with that - they are just not used to do it and express themselves, because general trend in the venue is like that - leader puts a ton of moves and follower follows. But doing more things solo is better for both leaders (less leading needed) and followers (they can enjoy their expression of the music without being limited by leader that much). So in the long run, it improves dancing quality of whole venue. But those with higher skills definitively like additional freedom and find dancing that way easier / more enjoyable

Couple dancing (whether in closed or open hold) is harder because you have to care about both your, partner's and common balance and compatibility between your bodies. Generally, closed hold has more of balance issues, while in open hold, connection is less direct so it takes more skills to lead and follow. Etc ... Also, both partners need to have similar interpretation of the music for this to work well ...

So there is no one simple answer to that question ....