Idle observation on pro tango dancers..

A follower who has tentative bent-knee mincing back steps is going to have back ochos that don't impress either. Its not about how far she reaches, its about the extension in her leg (and use of it) when she does. (although its easier to do it well when led to take a longer step when doing traveling ochos)

I'm skeptical that you need more space for one over the other... Maybe taking more space for the back ochos would give your follower the look you think only comes from front ones. And maybe you haven't learned to lead the front ones tightly... (I've been led in front ochos where the leader pivoted in his place and they took almost no room)

I think back ochos (esp the non linear, non traveling ones) are harder for leaders to lead properly (that's the only way I can account for how badly they so often get led) and harder for the follower to execute properly. I blame this on the fact that people get introduced to them practically in the first lesson (thus developing a lot of bad habits) and they aren't simple beginner moves.

I think that's what's wrong with me - it's in my mind, for some reason I believe I have to take huge steps - I can extend my leg straight if I take shorter steps and still maintain upper body relationship.

Totally agree that ochos are taught too soon - it's an intricate move which involves a fair grasp of technique.
 
Hmm, need to think about this. Dancing tonight so....

I don't generally get led into travelling ochos, and the leader often leads quite large steps, I think I focus on trying to keep my body following him, and then sometimes my extensions aren't so great or vice versa. Need to think about that..


well, if he hasn't lead you to dissociate and he's taking large steps side to side, then there is definitely a problem (on his part). If he hasn't led you to dissociate and is trying to travel, you may need to rethink a little.

I don't think of "ochos" as one thing only. They have a range and act sort of like a "wave" and are dependant on how much pivot (dissociation) a lead is trying to lead that can range from zero (straight line ochos) to overrotated versions.
 
well, if he hasn't lead you to dissociate ...

... have a range and act sort of like a "wave" and are dependant on how much pivot (dissociation) a lead is trying to lead

So true - but depends heavily on the abilities of the follower.

What to do,
when the lead not is recognized and not acted upon,
or when the follower reacts much less than the lead suggests?

In my early days of tango I increased the lead substantially -
most of those ladies never danced with me again.
Consequently, today I increase the lead A BIT, and if that is insuffcient for a dissociation, so be it.

Ladies, what do you mean?
 
Indeed. With an apilado embrace it is possible to front lead OR back ochos in place with out moving anything but your torso. And there IS enough room for the front ochos.
Maybe I should add that to my definition of "apilado".
What is your definition of apilado?
 
Back ochos can show off her legs and style just as much, if not MORE, but she has to do them correctly!

A properly executed back ocho, whether done as an 8 in place or done in a traveling S-curve as "milonguero" ochos, requires all the perfect technique of simply walking backwards maginified by a bunch of complicating variables.

A follower who has tentative bent-knee mincing back steps is going to have back ochos that don't impress either. Its not about how far she reaches, its about the extension in her leg (and use of it) when she does. (although its easier to do it well when led to take a longer step when doing traveling ochos)
Apparently my language was not precise enough. I said show off more (not show off her legs more). I guess I should have said embellishing more. I agree that plain ochos front and back, show off the legs equally (that's just not what I was trying to talk about).
I'm skeptical that you need more space for one over the other... Maybe taking more space for the back ochos would give your follower the look you think only comes from front ones. And maybe you haven't learned to lead the front ones tightly... (I've been led in front ochos where the leader pivoted in his place and they took almost no room)

I think back ochos (esp the non linear, non traveling ones) are harder for leaders to lead properly (that's the only way I can account for how badly they so often get led) and harder for the follower to execute properly. I blame this on the fact that people get introduced to them practically in the first lesson (thus developing a lot of bad habits) and they aren't simple beginner moves.
As to the space needed to do Front vs Back ochos well, we'll just have to disagree on that point. I do think space is the reason why you don't often see front ochos, when dancing in Milonguero Style. I'll admit I sometimes do the front ocho on the side (instead of the ocho cortada), when dancing in the apilado embrace.
 
So true - but depends heavily on the abilities of the follower.

What to do,
when the lead not is recognized and not acted upon,
or when the follower reacts much less than the lead suggests?

In my early days of tango I increased the lead substantially -
most of those ladies never danced with me again.
Consequently, today I increase the lead A BIT, and if that is insuffcient for a dissociation, so be it.

Ladies, what do you mean?

sure- there are ladies who "auto-pivot" and you get dissociated ochos no matter what you are going for because that's all they learned, and you get "planks" and plenty of other things. And of course when I am talking about understanding the entire range of ochos, I am talking about a really good situation where you have a follow who is versed in reading the torso well and can understand multiple options.

My advice to leads is to go where the follows hips are facing since that's what she interpreted no matter what the leader meant....so if she dissociated too much, go there. If she didn't, go with that instead of trying to force it. This may not make the best dance, but at least it gives a way to "save" what happened.
 
sure- there are ladies who "auto-pivot" and you get dissociated ochos no matter what you are going for because that's all they learned, and you get "planks" and plenty of other things. And of course when I am talking about understanding the entire range of ochos, I am talking about a really good situation where you have a follow who is versed in reading the torso well and can understand multiple options.

If it's not too much of a pain, have you got any youtube clips that you can think of that show non-disassotiated ochos? I can't think how it looks, or maybe it's not what I'd call an 'ocho'. Would be much obliged...
 
If it's not too much of a pain, have you got any youtube clips that you can think of that show non-disassotiated ochos? I can't think how it looks, or maybe it's not what I'd call an 'ocho'. Would be much obliged...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6NsCkxVdpk


Homer does some fairly non-disscociated ochos in this video. He calls them "lazy", I guess because the lead isn't causing much dissociation and the follow of course, isn't really doing any. Instead, you get an "ocho" that walks down line of dance instead of staying in place. It's still cross system, leads are still stepping either side of the follow, there's just not much pivot involved. Instead on the closed side, the step is fairly straight, and then the leg on the open side tends to cross over more.

Here's much the same demo, but with the back volcada in there too so you can see the added benefit of being able to do ochos that's don't dissociate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWPd6skz2Go
 
I think that's what's wrong with me - it's in my mind, for some reason I believe I have to take huge steps
I'd say you are certainly not alone. It seems that women actually get the message that they are supposed to take big steps.
Danced with someone last week who always did "deep" ochcos (by which I mean she pivoted a lot) even if I wasn't leading her to pivot that much. In her case it was obvious, thogh, that she was pretty new to the game.
 
To me you are in an apilado embrace, and are dancing apilado, when "neither partner can maintain their own balance without the other".
Fair enough. Maybe I read more into your prior post than was intended. I'm probably going off on a tangent anyways. I still think (at least for most people) that it takes more space to do front ochos well vs doing back ochos well. It's possible that the term "most people" may not apply to you, (either that or I'm wrong and just haven't figured that out yet).

;)
 
I think I had an excellent teacher in this style, even though he never used the term "apilado". And, I took lessons from him for a year and a half. Your partner, too, though, has to have the same knowledge of what is possible, and how it works.
Bastet, too, has mentioned Steven Payne, so I'm not the only one here that knows him (although I probably have the "longevity" thing tied up).
You and your partner both will have to "disassociate your hips".
If she is doing the front ocho, she will pivot on the ball of her inside foot, mostly from the waist down, then "step across herself". The foot that crosses ends up relavitely close to the weighted foot. The torso itself moves very little. Then, of course, she brings weight onto the standing foot, and brings her hips parallel to the man's.
If you look at a couple in an apilado position, they typically have at least maybe 6" to 12" between their toes, plenty of room to move the foot across while keeping the "front inside edge" of the foot in contact with the floor.

Not saying it's easy, by any means, but it can be done. I think though, that good teachers in that style are fairly rare.
 
Re: Neo-Ochos

Hi Light Sleeper!
.. what you mean by 'resp'?
Sorry, should mean 'respectively', because it can be back, or front-ocho, and to the left, or right.

.... I do see figures of 8 there! Look forward to some YT links..
Best, you load the following examples down to your PC, to watch it frame by frame again, so did I.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYXtBG1u_HY

There are two normal front-ochos between 1:02 - 1:07 with the greatest torsion at 1:02 and 1:05. And, all of the following stuff, boleos, piernazos, colgadas ... are basically cut off ochos! (better: depend on front-cross or back-cross steps)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBkVkzTya-I

From 0:25 on there is a string of front-ochos with small sacadas (look, her torsion at 0:28 - hips are in a 90° angle, and shoulder frame is almost parallel. To get a follower there, the leader has to push (? right word ?) her gently outwards, hand at her ribs. (Please excuse my english, if it does not sound proper). At 0:35 two ordinary back-ochos follow, ending with a change of direction to the front (alteración) at 0:36.

w.r. OD
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBkVkzTya-I

From 0:25 on there is a string of front-ochos with small sacadas (look, her torsion at 0:28 - hips are in a 90° angle, and shoulder frame is almost parallel. To get a follower there, the leader has to push (? right word ?) her gently outwards, hand at her ribs. (Please excuse my english, if it does not sound proper). At 0:35 two ordinary back-ochos follow, ending with a change of direction to the front (alteración) at 0:36.

w.r. OD
You post some interesting videos, OD. That one satisfied both the artistic and analytical sides of my brain.
:cheers:
 
... I'm mostly thinking of open embrace here.... you rarely see an ocho executed. Obviously there are pivots involved but not done in a figure eight pattern. Any thoughts on this, or maybe you disagree with my assertion alltogether!?


I see you have gotten plenty of opinions about ochos in open embrace and lots of videos.
Here is the instructional video on front ochos and the proper way to dance them.
Enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C12xjIHWJCQ&feature=channel
 

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