Int'l Foxtrot- More fluid? Less stiff?

[letsdance101]

So far in standard, slow foxtrot has been my hardest dance. I can do the steps, but I struggle with the whole twisting the upper body and making my upper body less stiff and more fluid... more foxtrot-y. I feel if I try to make it more fluid in my upper body, I lose my frame. Any tips? What can I do to not be so stiff? Does anybody else have this problem?

 

[middy]

My guess is that it helps to know when to use CBM and CBMP, and how to stretch the planes of your body while you twist? There's also this sort of continuous-ness about it, so each figure goes seamlessly into the next one, for the most part.

Foxtrot's probably the hardest dance for every beginner, so you are definitely not alone

 

[letsdance101]

I'm gonna ask probably a really dumb question what is CBM and CBMP?

 

[DanceMentor]

I don't think a whole lot about twisting my upper body. Sure, I've heard lots of coaches talk about this, but there are others who don't quite take the same approach. I think most of your shape and transition is going to come from your lower body. Additionally there is lots of strategic foot placement. For example, outside partner steps go in a direction about an eight of a turn from where the body is facing.

 

[llamasarefuzzy]

CBM- cross body motion, CBMP- cross body motion position.
CBM is sort of like if you walk parallel to a wall but have your torso perpendicular so that both palms are flat to the wall. CBMP is just the position you are in when you do CBM.
You use these concepts a lot in international foxtrot because while you are walking forward in a straight line, you need to rotate your upper body considerably to allow your partner to maintain body contact and stay inside/outside partner.
As middy said, international foxtrot is certainly, IMO, the hardest standard dance, if not any ballroom dance, to learn, so stick with it. It took my partner and me a solid 3 months of continuous to be able to do a feather and three step across the floor in body contact without bruising each others knees.

 

[fascination]

CBMP is about foot placement...CB=contrabody..as opposed to same side lead

 

[dancelvr]

From a follow's perspective.....What I have to work on in Slow Foxtrot is not forcing the CBM, but learning to breathe, and use it organically. I try to consider the connection, the dance tracks of my partner and myself, and how I maintain that connection without getting in his way and/or losing my frame. Forcing it will make me stiff, and that is death in Foxtrot. If I neglect the CBM, and get in his way, DP always lets me know. Fine tuning Slow Foxtrot takes time. I've learned to have patience.

 

[piimapoika]

I learned CBM as contrary (not cross) body motion. It happens naturally when you walk down the street - when you step forward with your right foot, your left shoulder moves forward also. What makes it difficult is that when you walk down the street you don't usually have another person intimately attached to your front.

 

[vit]

both CBM and cuban movement (in latin) happen naturally when walking, just that they are greatly exaggerated in dancing, because, well, it is dancing and not walking ... so another person near you isn't the main problem - main problem is to add volume to those natural movements so that they look like they should look in particular dance

 

[randomaeiou]

So far in standard, slow foxtrot has been my hardest dance. I can do the steps, but I struggle with the whole twisting the upper body and making my upper body less stiff and more fluid... more foxtrot-y. I feel if I try to make it more fluid in my upper body, I lose my frame. Any tips? What can I do to not be so stiff? Does anybody else have this problem?

It sounds like you are holding your frame by bracing it (i.e. contracting every single muscle at almost maximum strength, for the duration of the dance). As a very simple illustration of how tiring this is, try squeezing a ball (tennis ball, golf ball, stress ball, any sort of ball really) as hard as you can (or as hard as you hold your frame) for the length of a dance track. Now compare to how much less tiring just holding the same ball gently for the same duration is - you don't drop the ball, you don't move the ball, but the ball still stays exactly where it is with much less effort.

In ballroom, many people learn by getting static positions (usually the starting "setup" position) poked, prodded and manipulated into the correct position. A lot of people never get the lesson about how to maintain this position through movement, where the joints in the body *change* their relationships to each other, that *different* muscle groups must be activated *differently* through *different* movements to maintain the *same* position. Because they don't get this idea, a lot of people end up "one size fits all", which means they apply so much force to maintaining their frames that no matter the stresses placed on the frame, it stays the same, but this excessive force ends up looking very braced (because it is!), and it is also extremely fatiguing. Been there, done that.

Economy of effort (i.e. "effortlessness") (also known as "tone") comes from applying the *minimum* amount of muscular energy required to achieve a particular body position and/or movement - any more and you get "tension" rather than "tone", any less and you get distortion of body position. Note that the amount of energy and combination of muscles required to maintain "tone" changes through each different movement. Different body positions and different movements each demand different levels of exertion from different muscle groups, one size does NOT fit all - obvious when stated, not so common sense, in my experience.

 

[vit]

Problem is however, that most people that didn't start dancing when young are simply not able to achieve a nice and relaxed upright posture preferred in dance without trying hard. Many ballroom coaches in my area don't seem to be very aware of the problem - they are using the same approach now when I'm attending various hobby classes (something at about silver-gold level) as when I was a young competitor. As kids, we were able to stand upright without trying hard, we just needed a coach to remind us to that from time to time. For people in mentioned classes, that unlike me, started dancing at age of 30 or 40, the same approach simply doesn't work, so result that I see are stiff looking people with forced upright postures trying to dance ...

 

[Gary C]

I feel if I try to make it more fluid in my upper body, I lose my frame. Any tips?

Instead of trying to solve both the frame question and the fluidity question in one, do one after the other.

Focus for a month on dancing with a strong frame, over-tense your arms to develop the muscles to be able to hold them up later without explicit effort. During this time, actively dance without rotation in the upper body or significant sway. Focus on landing the frame only.

Once you've done that, your frame will have improved and you will have committed something to muscle memory. At this point, start to work on the relaxation and fluidity - your frame should by now behave itself better without you having to think about it actively.

Remember that people who both a) have a good frame and b) say their arms are soft are people who have already done the work to commit the frame to muscle memory and develop the muscles to be efficient and able to keep the arms in position. They're describing the end goal, not necessarily what you have to do to change yourself to get there. Until you've done that work, having soft arms won't give you a frame that looks good, it'll give you a frame that flexes as soon as you put energy in. Soft physically prepared arms look good.

We make our couples hold up small weights (0.5kg or 1kg) in each hand whilst maintaining hold to develop the muscular stamina to maintain the frame without building any bulk. Two minutes at a time in front of the mirror, maintaining posture and head position, then repeat over and over. They usually feel a benefit within two or three sessions. Try that.

 

[stash]

Instead of trying to solve both the frame question and the fluidity question in one, do one after the other.

Focus for a month on dancing with a strong frame, over-tense your arms to develop the muscles to be able to hold them up later without explicit effort. During this time, actively dance without rotation in the upper body or significant sway. Focus on landing the frame only.



We make our couples hold up small weights (0.5kg or 1kg) in each hand whilst maintaining hold to develop the muscular stamina to maintain the frame without building any bulk. Two minutes at a time in front of the mirror, maintaining posture and head position, then repeat over and over. They usually feel a benefit within two or three sessions. Try that.

I think this exercise is a great one, and one that I might try. However, I don't agree with stiffening the arms. I have always been told that the frame is supported from the back, and not the arms, because the back contains much stronger muscles than what connects your arms to you shoulders. Specifically the lats are the heavy lifter of the frame. So instead, I think focusing the energy there rather than the arms should help with the frame issue.

 

[Sania]

Create your posture and frame by stretching, not by holding:

A feeling of stretching up through the abs and back - (more in the abs for most people) to create height or "standing up straight" while knees remain slightly flexed

A side to side stretch through your arms, back and shoulders to create your topline

For followers, an upward stretch through the sternum to support the head and neck

A twisting stretch through the muscles on the sides as you move in and out of CBM

In all cases it is a dynamic stretch, not static

 

[cornutt]

Lots and lots of muscle isolation. An instructor said something last week that resonated with me: "In smooth [standard should be the same] you lead with your hips; you shape with your frame." I've been doing my smooth practice with that in mind.