Invigilation for dancing standard in smooth

[suburbaknght]

The DVIDA Silver Smooth Foxtrot syllabus has a total of ZERO figures in open position. All 15 figures are done in closed hold. We put some made-up (non-syllabus) figures into our routine at my teacher's insistence so as to look like we were dancing at the same level as everyone else on the floor who were doing open figures, presumably figures from another (non-DVIDA) syllabus, or made-up stuff. The open work is totally allowed by the NDCA rules, as long as it's not more than 50% of the routine, but then so is the 100% closed-hold DVIDA routine. I'd hate to think that if I were doing a strict DVIDA silver smooth foxtrot that there's an invigilator out there somewhere (or even a judge) who would have a problem with that. Now an open gold routine danced entirely in closed hold I could see as being legitimately underscored by the judges since they're not demonstrating as full a range of movement as are the open couples.

Note that DVIDA silver foxtrot assumes that one will be adapting figures from the silver waltz, Viennese, and even tango to go to open positions (Really. I'm dancing tango swivel fans in foxtrot with one of my students). The thing I love about DVIDA is that it is a teaching syllabus, not just a dancing syllabus, and every figure is included where it is in order to teach a technique, not just to give a new step. The silver foxtrot is the most technique-intensive of all the smooth styles.

For the record, the USISTD bronze smooth waltz is all closed hold as well, save for one listed variation from rumba.

 

[Terpsichorean Clod]

But what level exactly? Gold?

Silver. Sorry, I can't provide more specifics than that. It wouldn't take much more to identify the dancers and/or judges.

My best guess at what's really going on here: comps hire a bunch of strongly International dancers to judge, who proceed to judge the Smooth floor through Standard lenses.

The judging panel at the time all had American style backgrounds.

 

[TwoRightFeet]

Were they dancing Standard figures, or closed-hold American figures?

There is an NDCA rule that states, "Elements and figures unique to one dance or style may not be used in another dance, unless specified. For example, the AIDA from International Rumba may not be used in American Style or the Double Reverse Spin may not be used in Foxtrot; crossover swivels may not be danced in the Rumba, etc."

So it's conceivable that the invigilator saw specific figures being used that were unique to International style that were being used in American style. But then I would have thought that should be the specific reason given for the potential infraction.

 

[dbk]

How are you thinking that standard technique differs from smooth technique? If you are leading the lady through a perfect heel turn in the first half of a left turn, that might be standard technique that isn't smooth technique, but it might be legitimately invigilated against too, depending on the American style syllabus being used.

I don't think there is any such thing as "standard technique that isn't smooth technique" - but there is smooth technique that isn't standard technique. I hope that explains it succinctly enough

For example: exaggerated stretch and shaping, apart work, finishing your lines, spacing and reconnecting, spins, tricks, drops, standing spins, character and presence, hip movement, etc. ... often based on Standard technique, and not in conflict with it, but also not something Standard dancers can, or are expected to, do.

The problem is, with judging, what do you reward? The couple with the best Standard on the floor, but no Smooth skills, or the couple with solid Standard plus some great Smooth technique too? The first couple is the best couple on the floor... if you're only looking for Standard. But it's not a Standard floor. How do you judge that?

Every judge will have their own opinion - there's no right answer. But when you start stacking the deck with Standard judges... it's clear what can happen.

(Of course, I must add that most of the Standard judges I know are fair judging Smooth... and the same problem can happen with Latin judges too, in a different direction.)

Edit to add: IMO this is a completely moot point until Open, maybe Gold. At lower levels, no one has good enough Standard technique to even start working on their Smooth technique... and if they do, great, place them, point them into a level that will actually challenge them to work on Smooth technique.

 

[joedance]

Well, there are certain rotary/shaping techniques specific to smooth that often standard-focused dancers are not so good at - but they are the same thing in principle, just applied in a more extreme way, perhaps?

Very quick note since it's way past my bedtime.

100% agree.

My understanding is that the thread is talking bronze and/or silver. At gold there starts to be differentiation in the way one expresses the dance and it blossoms in open . . . but I would still argue the technique is the same and as stated more extreme (or emphasized) in different ways depending on the style. In bronze and silver its more important what foot one is on and how does one get there.

 

[smidra86]

My biggest issue is when people don't get invigilated for obviously being out of syllabus. I was at a recent NDCA comp and was watching an explicitly silver or bronze rhythm scholarship round and the pro-am couple was clearly doing international rumba instead of american, with fans and hockey sticks and rope spins and the whole nine-yards (no box step) and it was a 3 couple final and this couple won. I wasn't happy because they didn't even do proper rhythm technique. But relating back to this topic, similarly this applies to smooth. The major difference is is that good standard technique does actually make smooth better. So not breaking hold isn't illegal. I, personally, don't want to see a whisk in your smooth though. Three steps and feathers are ok (they technically are legal, at least in the FADS syllabus). There are plenty of other things that shouldn't be there still. If you are doing continuity and just do left and right turns (in silver) for the entirety of the minute and a half and you don't get bored of doing it and you do it really well, there should be no reason why you should get DQed. Actually if you DO left and right turns REALLY well and that's all you do, there should be no reason why you couldn't win (unless someone else's left and right turns are better than yours)

 

[Dancing Irishman]

My biggest issue is when people don't get invigilated for obviously being out of syllabus. I was at a recent NDCA comp and was watching an explicitly silver or bronze rhythm scholarship round and the pro-am couple was clearly doing international rumba instead of american, with fans and hockey sticks and rope spins and the whole nine-yards (no box step) and it was a 3 couple final and this couple won. I wasn't happy because they didn't even do proper rhythm technique. But relating back to this topic, similarly this applies to smooth. The major difference is is that good standard technique does actually make smooth better. So not breaking hold isn't illegal. I, personally, don't want to see a whisk in your smooth though. Three steps and feathers are ok (they technically are legal, at least in the FADS syllabus). There are plenty of other things that shouldn't be there still. If you are doing continuity and just do left and right turns (in silver) for the entirety of the minute and a half and you don't get bored of doing it and you do it really well, there should be no reason why you should get DQed. Actually if you DO left and right turns REALLY well and that's all you do, there should be no reason why you couldn't win (unless someone else's left and right turns are better than yours)

Yikes...that stinks about the scholarship. I'm not familiar with the ndca syllabus at all, is it prescriptive on specific moves or just general difficulty? If its the latter the judges probably didn't have a way to ding that couple for obviously doing international even if they wanted to.

I agree about the left and right boxes, it's just taking the logical extreme of a "do what you do well on repeat" approach to winning (but not terribly interesting) choreography for syllabus. Although at some syllabus level (gold?) content starts to become somewhat important, right? Still secondary to technique, obviously (fanciest choreo in the world doesn't matter if you're off time or don't take heel leads where you should).

 

[Warren J. Dew]

I don't think there is any such thing as "standard technique that isn't smooth technique"

The couple with the best Standard on the floor, but no Smooth skills

These two phrases are contradictory. If all standard technique is smooth technique - a statement I largely agree with - then the couple with the best standard on the floor necessarily has some smooth skills, because they have some standard skills that are smooth skills.

 

[smidra86]

Yikes...that stinks about the scholarship. I'm not familiar with the ndca syllabus at all, is it prescriptive on specific moves or just general difficulty? If its the latter the judges probably didn't have a way to ding that couple for obviously doing international even if they wanted to.

I agree about the left and right boxes, it's just taking the logical extreme of a "do what you do well on repeat" approach to winning (but not terribly interesting) choreography for syllabus. Although at some syllabus level (gold?) content starts to become somewhat important, right? Still secondary to technique, obviously (fanciest choreo in the world doesn't matter if you're off time or don't take heel leads where you should).

Actually, I don't think content will really matter no matter what level you are. People can dance gold latin with bronze routines and win against people who are trying to do gold or silver steps. I bring this up every time there is a thread on doing lower level steps at higher levels. You don't need to do anything fancy at higher levels just need good technique. Actually, I've danced syllabus latin routines against open couples and have placed above some open couples. We danced a completely syllabus paso doble (not breaking hold at all) once at an NDCA competition in clearly champ latin (we were dancing it just for fun because we were there not expecting much) and we did get a recall in it. So you don't anything fancy to do well or even ok in higher levels.

 

[smidra86]

Also, if you have great standard technique, shaping and frame and hold in smooth will transfer over from that, so you will have great closed hold, but not necessarily open hold. If you learn how to transfer your closed hold stuff into open hold you will become and unstoppable smooth dancer (i.e. any of the smooth champions from the last several years or so, they have mostly been standard or 10-dance trained)

 

[Dancing Irishman]

Actually, I don't think content will really matter no matter what level you are. People can dance gold latin with bronze routines and win against people who are trying to do gold or silver steps. I bring this up every time there is a thread on doing lower level steps at higher levels. You don't need to do anything fancy at higher levels just need good technique. Actually, I've danced syllabus latin routines against open couples and have placed above some open couples. We danced a completely syllabus paso doble (not breaking hold at all) once at an NDCA competition in clearly champ latin (we were dancing it just for fun because we were there not expecting much) and we did get a recall in it. So you don't anything fancy to do well or even ok in higher levels.

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly about doing lower level steps in upper levels. But I think there's a difference between doing, say, a syllabus latin routine and doing a rumba routine that goes 3 New Yorker- spot turn-fan- hockey stick- fan- alemana repeat in gold or open (my best attempt at a latin equivalent of open left and right boxes around the floor). Though I guess as a counterpoint the judges are looking at you for about 8 seconds each max in a semi, so content is really more for you and your friends than the judges.

 

[smidra86]

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly about doing lower level steps in upper levels. But I think there's a difference between doing, say, a syllabus latin routine and doing a rumba routine that goes 3 New Yorker- spot turn-fan- hockey stick- fan- alemana repeat in gold or open (my best attempt at a latin equivalent of open left and right boxes around the floor). Though I guess as a counterpoint the judges are looking at you for about 8 seconds each max in a semi, so content is really more for you and your friends than the judges.

Actually I think that routine is perfectly fine all the way through the finals. And I don't say this because I think it is true, I know and believe it is true from personal experience so its not like I'm saying something I believe might happen, it actually does. And if you are doing basic routines and not winning then that just means you haven't refined your technique enough yet.

 

[Joe]

I wouldn't mark a couple that I noticed sticking to their Natural Turn, Closed Change, Reverse Turn, Closed Change, Spin Turn combination

Why not?

 

[slhull.13]

(As everyone else seems to have noted before me) I agree that closed hold is acceptable (and encouraged!) for lower level competition routines, so long as the couple in question is not dancing any strictly-standard patterns or combinations.
However, when you reach, say, the Gold level, staying in closed hold for the entire routine almost seems in bad taste. At that point it become clear that the couple is dancing their modified standard routine and has not attempted to embrace the unique challenges of the smooth style, which involve opening up, extending lines, etc. Regardless of whether or not their closed hold is stellar--even superior to the other couples on the floor--at that point they are not competing the true style of smooth dancing.

 

[clumsy fellow]

It's not the job of the invigilator to mark anything... it's a simple thumbs up or a thumbs down on dancing syllabus. I think the issue is getting confused…

Maybe a Smooth dancer can clarify this for me; Is there a rule that states you have to be in frame a certain amount of time/steps or can dance your entire routine never taking frame? If so, is it possible that the rule was misinterpreted?