Is gender imbalance self made?
- Thread starter opendoor
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bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
its total garbage..there are more ladies than men in most partner dancers, because women enjoy dancing more than men.
leaders have a harder job in the first 18months and their progress is slower, and no doubt there are big-mouthed critics of both sexes who dishearten learners of the opposite sex.
There are no Tom-Cats where I am, only gentlemen, who by and large dance with ladies at all levels.
quixotedlm
Active Member
But BTM, are you sure your commentary will be shared by the newbies, or could you be out of touch with the beginner man's PoV?
I certainly see this behavior in my scene. Its not intentional or malicious, but the unintentional actions of experienced dancers simulates the case of the big plant cutting off sunlight for the smaller ones. It takes a tenacious person to keep on and survive. And my perspective is a comparative one - I have been a beginner and broken into 3 dances before tango, and the beginner's 18 months isn't quite the same here.
I don't like the Tomcat characterization though - I can't agree that it's quite true. My feeling is that experienced women are less generous towards beginner men than the other way around, and the asymmetry in generosity is what ails the growth of men - it has nothing to do with predatory attitudes. (I say this not as a judgment or with bitterness - and I'm more than understanding - even empathetic - of the reasons why such asymmetry exists. And I'm also cognizant of the possibility that my observations may be more local than universal, and more flawed than not.... and perspectives change with time and experience and skill... )
I certainly see this behavior in my scene. Its not intentional or malicious, but the unintentional actions of experienced dancers simulates the case of the big plant cutting off sunlight for the smaller ones. It takes a tenacious person to keep on and survive. And my perspective is a comparative one - I have been a beginner and broken into 3 dances before tango, and the beginner's 18 months isn't quite the same here.
I don't like the Tomcat characterization though - I can't agree that it's quite true. My feeling is that experienced women are less generous towards beginner men than the other way around, and the asymmetry in generosity is what ails the growth of men - it has nothing to do with predatory attitudes. (I say this not as a judgment or with bitterness - and I'm more than understanding - even empathetic - of the reasons why such asymmetry exists. And I'm also cognizant of the possibility that my observations may be more local than universal, and more flawed than not.... and perspectives change with time and experience and skill... )
bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
i can only speak from my experience....a lot of people try tango then give up, because it is difficult. I know one lady who's tongue is a harpy; though she is a pretty awful dancer herself. Of coursre i dont know what a beginners POV is and most people leave before they tell you what their reason is for leaving.
at another local group; ladies and gentlemen have left because the teacher shouted at them; and this teacher does nothing if not encourage bitchiness and superior attitudes.
I an clear that no-one in my class is allowed to criticise except for me...
opendoor
Forum Master
I understand
My experience tells me that that is the least likely way for a beginner to improve, and I rather lost interest in the article after reading that. Leaders need to dance with experienced followers, not newbies.
I think that it is true that more-experienced followers are less willing to dance with beginner leaders than the other way around, and it is tough for any new leader to find out what he needs to do to offer a half-decent dance. Our egos are so easily bruised (!) that it is no suprise that many men give up very quickly, and the followers that could have pulled their weight in their communities probably have no one to blame but themselves for the relative dearth of decent leaders, but for the opposite reason than that suggested in the article. It's the leaders they needed to look after!
Yes, there are Tomcats where I dance. And I DO mean "Tomcat" in the sense that they are on the prowl. It was one of the reasons that I have been spending less time with AT.
There are also the experienced guys who, as decribed above, will glom onto a newbie and teach her to do ganchos, leg wraps, etc. Meanwhile, said newbies rarely develop good basics. Same thing happens in the CW scene, but without the ganchos and leg wraps!
Some of the experienced guys are just stupid and rude about floorcraft, too, and that behaviour could be interpreted as "get out of my way, and/or off the floor, newbie". (OT - The absolute Worst example of this was with "Westies" who came into a CW venue (truck stop) telling the regulars there that they should get off the floor. This is why I will always refute the label "Westie".)
Any experienced woman who takes the time to dance with newbie males with a kindness of heart will pretty much be remembered in a good light for a long time.
Since I have been part of the local AT scene at one practica since 2003, I think I can safely say there is no "collusion". That's just the way it is.
There are also the experienced guys who, as decribed above, will glom onto a newbie and teach her to do ganchos, leg wraps, etc. Meanwhile, said newbies rarely develop good basics. Same thing happens in the CW scene, but without the ganchos and leg wraps!
Some of the experienced guys are just stupid and rude about floorcraft, too, and that behaviour could be interpreted as "get out of my way, and/or off the floor, newbie". (OT - The absolute Worst example of this was with "Westies" who came into a CW venue (truck stop) telling the regulars there that they should get off the floor. This is why I will always refute the label "Westie".)
Any experienced woman who takes the time to dance with newbie males with a kindness of heart will pretty much be remembered in a good light for a long time.
Since I have been part of the local AT scene at one practica since 2003, I think I can safely say there is no "collusion". That's just the way it is.
Agreed. A big part of the gender imbalance is because experienced men are more willing to dance with newbie followers, than experienced women are to dance with newbie leaders.
BTW, I also agree that beginners dancing with other beginners is the slowest way to improve, (which also helps the newbie followers to improve faster than the newbie leaders).
I agree completely. I was an experienced dancer when I took up AT, but I was afraid to ask the better AT followers to dance. When I finally worked up the courage I was pleased to find out I was a more capable tangoer than I had imagined. I always suggest to new leaders to quit asking only beginner followers to dance.
Around here most women are happy to dance with newbies, at least a few times. I think they know that helping new leaders learn and grow is good for the whole tango community.
OTOH, if a beginner takes advantage of the willingness of an experienced woman to dance with him and begins asking her too frequently, than she will probably begin turning him down.
Subliminal
Well-Known Member
I don't think that this is nearly the only reason there is a gender imbalance, but it can contribute. I think btm is correct... The primary reason there are more ladies is culturally it is more acceptable for women to be interested in dance.
But then from that pool of men who show interest, both the steep learning curve, lack of encouragement, and active discouragement can whittle down the numbers. I have actually experienced the latter. The very first practica I attended, another leader sneered at me for almost bumping into him and loudly proclaimed to the floor that I had no business dancing tango... somewhat later, I mentioned the incident to a friend, and she found it hard to believe... This guy was always so nice to her. :-|
But then from that pool of men who show interest, both the steep learning curve, lack of encouragement, and active discouragement can whittle down the numbers. I have actually experienced the latter. The very first practica I attended, another leader sneered at me for almost bumping into him and loudly proclaimed to the floor that I had no business dancing tango... somewhat later, I mentioned the incident to a friend, and she found it hard to believe... This guy was always so nice to her. :-|
opendoor
Forum Master
But actually couples enter the clubs and studios to learn, singles are an exception. And when the guys surrender overcharged, there is a female surplus. And in the end the women leave the scene. So it actually seems to me very often, that there are to few women around.
I think your assumptions and math are incorrect.
Around here couples are not at all the standard, and singles are welcome and common.
If a couple shows up and the guy soon quits, his partner probably also quits. Even if she does stick around for a while before she quits, it's still one woman and one man missing, but a surplus of women before that.
I think in most places, you could ask any woman if there are usually more men or women and your answer would be, "more women". There are occasional exceptions.
(How come every time I write "occasional", the correct spelling of it is different? No matter how many "C"s or "S"s I use, I always get it wrong.)
quixotedlm
Active Member
Excellent point!
outdoorman1234
Member
I'm one of the struggling newbie leaders and the absolute biggest thing that would help me (and I've mentioned it to several instructors) would be somewhat regularly scheduled practicas (or even portions of normal practicas) where experienced people would show up and be willing to dance with newbies and give them pointers on whatever would help them. The idea doesn't get too much support from anyone, though.
Most of the practicas I've been to (Washington DC area) tend to be more like "informal" milongas where people of similar skill levels tend to stick together and practice.
Dancing with more experienced partners at milongas isn't as much help as you would think since it's not really the appropriate place to teach or ask for advice. The only saving grace for me is that there are a couple of more experienced follower friends that I feel I can ask for advice/pointers, but I try not to do it very much at an actual milonga.
Larry
Most of the practicas I've been to (Washington DC area) tend to be more like "informal" milongas where people of similar skill levels tend to stick together and practice.
Dancing with more experienced partners at milongas isn't as much help as you would think since it's not really the appropriate place to teach or ask for advice. The only saving grace for me is that there are a couple of more experienced follower friends that I feel I can ask for advice/pointers, but I try not to do it very much at an actual milonga.
Larry
quixotedlm
Active Member
As far as I can tell, this is a common story.
A backup idea is for men to learn to follow (at least at a basic level) and work it out with one another.
A backup idea is for men to learn to follow (at least at a basic level) and work it out with one another.