Is gender imbalance self made?

[Gssh]

Maybe what is good for the individual isn't good for the community? In such cases, the individual behavior is characterized by the adjective "parasitic". If the dancers who learned skills through a given community are reluctant to nurture the younglings out of an obsession for a "fix", that seems to beg some serious questioning.

Parasitic is such a strong word - especially as i think that it is probably equally applicable to the "younglings". Why do they want to dance with experienced partners? what are they giving back? And in general i think we are not talking about beginners, we are talking about both leaders and followers who have between 2-3 years of experience, and who are stuck with the challenge that now that they have the basic technique down most dances are just not all that much fun, and the challenge becomes to change from being able to dance other peoples dance to dancing ones own dance.
I actually think what is not good for the community is the intermediate group of both followers and leaders who have given up on developing themselves and working on how they can create better dances for their partners, but (as leaders) stick with with the one or two partner that they know way too well or prey on beginners or (as followers) just want to "be danced" and entertained by the few leaders that are still able to present a technical challenge.

Gssh

 

[jennyisdancing]

I think Lily's point is not that we look at these phenomenon in a positive light alone despite its negative effects on ourselves - rather that one learn to empathize and understand why these are valued so much despite the ill side effects. The point is that if we aspire to join a club, we ought to appreciate the clubs ethos and eccentricities, and at least see why they make sense in a certain light.

An eg - joining the military is not for everyone. The ones that do want to join need to accept that there will be a boot camp, and there will be guns, and there will be physically grueling punishments. These are not 'nice' things - but these are the price one embraces to join this club.

Your attitude - that maybe this is not the right club for you - is rare and an excellent demonstration of healthy self esteem and healthy choice making!

Ok....but I sure would hope that joining a tango community should be a lot easier than being part of the military! As far as the "'price" I am supposed to pay to join the club, well, I invested in dance lessons, as well as the time to attend practicas and milongas and getting to know people.

I mean, come on..this is supposed to be a fun hobby. I'm not a professional, this is something I am choosing to do for enjoyment. And I am not from Argentina, so I didn't grow up with a cultural involvement in tango. The idea that I should have to "pay my dues" just to get a few dances or be accepted into this "exclusive club"? You're right....I absolutely do reject that notion. I like to go to places where people are open, friendly and accepting. The way to care about quality dancing is to encourage people, not reject them IMHO.

 

[Subliminal]

My first teacher grew up in bsas, and from what she told me, the milongas then were quite different. It was more of a community event. You would go to chat, grab a drink, dance, and just have fun. Tango was for everyone who wanted to be a part of it. I wonder if something got lost in translation? Is the elitist attitude from Argentina, or is it native to the exported tango communities who believe they have found something different and selfishly want to keep it to themselves?

 

[Gssh]

My first teacher grew up in bsas, and from what she told me, the milongas then were quite different. It was more of a community event. You would go to chat, grab a drink, dance, and just have fun. Tango was for everyone who wanted to be a part of it. I wonder if something got lost in translation? Is the elitist attitude from Argentina, or is it native to the exported tango communities who believe they have found something different and selfishly want to keep it to themselves?

My teacher told me similar stories, and actually my impression of how the milongas worked is completely opposite - i got the impression that the milonga was for everybody, but that if you were not very good you would spend most of the time chatting and drinking. His descriptions reminded me actually of the open jam sessions at the jazz bar i used to go to - everybody knew exactly where they were at skill wise, and when they were welcome to take the stage, and when it was time to get off/get into the backgroud. I never was good enough to get up there - i never even brought my guitar, but i still went to chat, and drink and hang out with friends and experience the whole thing. Same thing with playing darts in a bar - if i go with friends we will sooner or later end up playing a few rounds, and sometimes i don't take part but get a burger instead, but if i went to a bar expecting to get pick up games i would probably not have as much fun.
If you don't go to a milonga to dance 3 hours nonstop, but to see your friends, watch other people dance, drink a beer or two, hum along your favourite tunes, and if there is the right combination of partner, music, and dynamic on the dancefloor to dance you dance one or two tandas, then the whole question of "what am i doing here if i am not dancing" does not come up the same way. If one starts dancing because that is where ones friends hang out it is a very different thing.

Gssh

 

[jennyisdancing]

Sorry but no, I don't see the point of going to a dance and, well...not dancing. If I just want to hang out and not dance, I have plenty of non-dancing friends whom I can join for happy hour, without having to travel far, pay a cover charge, take lessons or buy special clothes and shoes. Clearly it would be different in Buenos Aires where, as I understand it, neighborhood locals will find their friends and a tango dance scene all at the same regular hangout spot that they normally frequent.

My point is, here in the U.S., you have to go out of your way to seek out any kind of partner dancing. So I think it's understandable to want to feel it's worth your time. And a gender imbalance may contribute to that decision.

 

[Gssh]

Oh, i completely agree with your point - i just wanted to point out that "a inclusive neighbourhood milonga where everybody hangs out" might not mean that there are a lot of dances for everybody. And that subliminals question "is the elitist attitude argentinean, or is it native to the expat tango community" is not going to help us, exactly because we are in a completely different context - we (most of us/most of the time) don't go to milongas to hang out with friends and maybe dance a bit, we go to milongas to dance, and maybe hang out with friends a bit.

The op's hypothesis was that the gender imbalance is caused by beginning men not getting enough dances - they go to a milonga and see the women who take class with them dance with tango gods (or what appear to be tango gods), and they come back breathless and glowing and tell them how amazing it is to dance with more advanced dancers, while they fight with every single step, and the one time they dared to ask an advanced follower she was so responsive and fast that it was even worse than dancing with a fellow beginner. Leaders tend to dance down skill wise, followers tend to dance up skillwise. So if you are a beginning leader who can you feel confident to ask for a dance? There is nobody at the milonga who is going to think you gave them the best dance of their lives.

The op suggests that the best way to deal with this is to discourage more advanced leaders from dancing with beginning followers. That way beginning leaders have somebody to dance with for whom they are actually the first choice.

I don't think this is the solution - but i am at a loss when looking ofr suggestions of how to make the first year or so more attractice to beginning leaders.

I had my first dance at a milonga after taking classes for almost a year, and going to milongas and watching and eating the snacks for maybe 3 months or so. It was actually with the host of the of the milonga - she came up to me and said "you are always here, and never dance - would you like to?" i said yes, and after the first few bars she looked at me and "you actually know how to dance tango?!.?!?.?!" (with exactly that mixture of question, surprise, and factual statement ).And after that i cautiously started asking other women for dances, usually a few that i knew from group classes, some that i had seen at the beginners classes of my teacher (his policy was that once you moved up you were encouraged to take the beginners series again for free), and one or two each milonga who looked like they were "nice to beginners".

Gssh

 

[LadyLeader]

We have here also the situation where followers are coming to courses at beginner level in higher numbers than leaders. Though there was an odd exception when I was teaching with my lady partner and men were in queue waiting for partner instead of the opposite.

There has been some difficulties at advanced level to get followers to match single leaders on the festival courses. Somehow the gender unbalance has changed from beginner level to advanced level - anyhow in that context and here.

Does this happen on your festivals?

 

[Nathan]

Ok....but I sure would hope that joining a tango community should be a lot easier than being part of the military! As far as the "'price" I am supposed to pay to join the club, well, I invested in dance lessons, as well as the time to attend practicas and milongas and getting to know people.

I mean, come on..this is supposed to be a fun hobby. I'm not a professional, this is something I am choosing to do for enjoyment. And I am not from Argentina, so I didn't grow up with a cultural involvement in tango. The idea that I should have to "pay my dues" just to get a few dances or be accepted into this "exclusive club"? You're right....I absolutely do reject that notion. I like to go to places where people are open, friendly and accepting. The way to care about quality dancing is to encourage people, not reject them IMHO.

Yes, it's a fun hobby, but it's also a social one. Personally, I view it as each person's responsibility to become as pleasant to dance with as possible, given instructor availability and one's life circumstances. If everyone did this, we'd all be having much better dances!

 

[jennyisdancing]

Yes, it's a fun hobby, but it's also a social one. Personally, I view it as each person's responsibility to become as pleasant to dance with as possible, given instructor availability and one's life circumstances. If everyone did this, we'd all be having much better dances!

Well of course. Fun, social, pleasant, they all go together, don't they? Or at least they should, in theory.

 

[newbie]

People just go up and ask each other to dance each song, everyone gets to dance, and everyone's happy.

As a beginner I liked cortinas (and therefore, tandas) because that was the moment where all the followers were available. Now I like them coz'I know that my sufferings with this beginner who invited me will end after at most three songs. No need to find lame excuses to put an end to a series of bad dances. Cortina time, thanks and bye.

 

[quixotedlm]

You're exactly right. Frankly the tanda system adds to the problems. Sorry if the traditionalists are upset to hear me say that. Tango customs are beautiful - in Argentina. But I just don't think it's that workable a) in the American culture and b) especially with a gender imbalance. I know of some folks who revived a certain disbanded milonga, and they dispensed with tandas and cabeceos. People just go up and ask each other to dance each song, everyone gets to dance, and everyone's happy.

Nothing wrong with this view, but saying that the -other- view in support of tanda's is not quite right. The tanda system works fine in the US in many places. American culture - espinoza dance - is a potpourri of nationalities and cultures, and those who can learn something as alien as dancing do just fine in leveraging something like tanda, cortina, cabaceo, mirada etc.

Also, proposing that a core part of a system needs to be redesigned to solve a problem before considering other options makes no sense. I really only care about solutions that try to foster learning and a welcoming attitude within the confines of the reality that the US Milongas have tandas and that is used I consistently but often. And the solutions need to teach newbies how to navigate the world they ate given, instead of hoping that the bad bad world will become a garden of roses soon, just by asking for it logically.

 

[salthepal]

I think tandas are important in the sense that it is a collection of songs with a similar feel, so that you c an focus on connecting with your partner without having to struggle adapting to songs with different feels. It would be horrible to have a D'Arienzo Echague followed by a late 50s Di Sarli instrumental followed by an Otros Aires number.

Yes, at small milongas, 4 or 5 song tandas will restrict the number of people you can dance with. When I DJ at our events (small university based club), I do 3 song tandas to help people cycle faster through partners.

The OP's problem seems to be that their tango community is excessively cliquish, either to due to snobbery or (anti)social awkwardness. Our community suffers from similar problems, mostly because our members are mostly graduate students and faculty in the sciences, many of whom are incredible socially awkward. Many of them come off as smug and snobbish. It is a serious problem that needs to be addressed early and often.

 

[LoveTango]

I personally am not sure that this has anything to do with tandas or no tandas - i think i dance with more different people when there are tandas. After two tandas we usually stop dancing even if it is still very nice, while without tandas i tend to go for longer sets - i like really exploring and indulging in the connection. Also most followers expect more than one dance, and especially if they enjoy themselves i find it easier to tell them that i want to stop dancing when there is a cortina. What i have seen at milongas without tandas was usually a really stratified community, with more advanced people staying on the dancefloor with the same one or two partners for the whole evening and beginners just dancing one song. And i think that does a disservice to both - it might just be me, but i need at least 2 songs to get into the connection and to understand how her body and mind work.

Gssh

My experience is similar. When there was no cortina, I often missed out dancing with the partners I enjoy dancing with. At the time I was off the dance floor, they had already started dancing with other partners. Then when they were looking for me, I was dancing. So unless you sit a lot and refuse a lot, you probably would not have much chance to dance with the partners of your choice. I also think most people would not just dance with a partner for only one song even if there were cortina after every song.