Is gender imbalance self made?

[jennyisdancing]

First the leaders perspective on how many people i can actually dance with in an eveing: A tanda is (very) roughly 15 minutes, i.e there are 4 tandas in an hour, and if I dance 3 hours that makes about 12 tandas. With dancing two tandas in a row if it goes really well i guess i dance on average with 9 people. Depending who is at the milonga there are usually 4 people who are close friends/favourite partners/old dance partners and so that i "have" to dance with. This guarantees that i am not going to dance with most people. There might be a lot of people i would like to dance with, and even more that i would dance with, but there is just not enought time. If get there late, or have to work early the next day or anything i will only dance 2 hours or so, and the ratio gets even worse.

You're exactly right. Frankly the tanda system adds to the problems. Sorry if the traditionalists are upset to hear me say that. Tango customs are beautiful - in Argentina. But I just don't think it's that workable a) in the American culture and b) especially with a gender imbalance. I know of some folks who revived a certain disbanded milonga, and they dispensed with tandas and cabeceos. People just go up and ask each other to dance each song, everyone gets to dance, and everyone's happy.

 

[Subliminal]

I think it would be great to have a milonga with alternative music like that. Neo/nuevo/electro/whatever tango and non-tango music tend to have longer songs anyway. Some of the traditional tango songs are like a minute and a half to two minutes. It can take that long just to get in the groove with someone.

 

[LadyLeader]

First the leaders perspective on how many people i can actually dance with in an eveing: A tanda is (very) roughly 15 minutes, i.e there are 4 tandas in an hour, and if I dance 3 hours that makes about 12 tandas. With dancing two tandas in a row if it goes really well i guess i dance on average with 9 people. Depending who is at the milonga there are usually 4 people who are close friends/favourite partners/old dance partners and so that i "have" to dance with. This guarantees that i am not going to dance with most people. There might be a lot of people i would like to dance with, and even more that i would dance with, but there is just not enought time. If get there late, or have to work early the next day or anything i will only dance 2 hours or so, and the ratio gets even worse.

Gssh

Thanks for the whole posting but this part is extra interesting for me. I am thinking in the same way and had tried to write about it at several occasions but never got any responce!

There is also one more aspect on resources. I can not ask a new follower for ONE dance but there must be at least two. Follower will consider it as failure if I stop asking after one dance. This keeps me back some times for asking!

I have come up only with one suggestion at my community - I asked if it would be interesting to have some times in a month a *happy hour*. During that hour experienced leaders and followers are lining up and dancing with beginners/other partners than usually. I would like to contribute but I do not want to exluce some of my active partners at an ordinary milonga/practica. Anyhow our community was not interested.

Some organizers here have milonguero-guarantee. One or more leaders are available during the evening, with milonguero lable, for followers to ask for a dance. Milongueros takes turns and the lable is the sign for the active ones.

One of our DJ started to play only 3 songs per tanda to get more people on the floor. That was at our Sunday practica but he was asked to go back to the 4-songs tanda. I think it was a great idea, could maybe work better somewhere else!

The understanding for a leader's situations is quite important for me, up to the degree that it is one of the reasons I ask a follower to pista. If she expresses understanding for, why she some evenings is asked for a dance and some other not; I will be happy to ask for a dance whenever possible!

 

[newbie]

My Friday partner invites beginner after beginner when there is a shortage of followers. In the opposite situation she comes to me and says "Ok now you dance with this one". Result is the same, we don't dance together much. About music her approach is different from mine, she tends to invite not enjoyable leaders on enjoyable music ("at least there will be something that I like!") while I wait for unenjoyable music to invite the counterpart ("Great, another DiSarli. Ok, who is the least enjoyable follower here?").

Gender imbalance is not only about quantity. If I hear a piece that I like, and the two or three ladies who could follow are already dancing, then I'll feel that there is a shortage of followers, whatever the number of sitting followers may be.

 

[gyb]

You're exactly right. Frankly the tanda system adds to the problems. Sorry if the traditionalists are upset to hear me say that. Tango customs are beautiful - in Argentina. But I just don't think it's that workable a) in the American culture and b) especially with a gender imbalance. I know of some folks who revived a certain disbanded milonga, and they dispensed with tandas and cabeceos. People just go up and ask each other to dance each song, everyone gets to dance, and everyone's happy.

No, getting rid of tandas wouldn't make everyone happy, quite the contrary. This is not about traditionalism, you will find that more experienced dancers generally favor the tanda system. Dancers are not insisting on it because they like traditions or customs - this is a straw man -, but because the tanda system actually contributes to a better tango experience. In order to achieve the state of complete immersion it is important to spend one or two tangos with exploring the momentary physical and emotional state of the partner, and slowly building up to the point where the momentary ability levels can be carefully matched with dance challenges. Entrega only happens after such careful preparation. On the other hand the tanda can't be too long, as it is both physically and emotionally difficult to "give everything" for a much longer period of time. Finally, by having natural break points both partners know how long their union is going to last and the pshychological unease coming with needing to negotiate the time to leave the other is minimized. I think the four tango tanda is quite optimal, three is too short to really get into business, five could become quite annoying when you end up with an unmatching partner.

Maybe your preference is for quantity as opposed to quality, but after a few years of dancing quantity becomes meaningless. Complete tango immersion rarely happens, but the tanda system allows to maximize the chance for its occurence (although I do know that some followers are unable to let it go and never achieve this state; unless they branch off on the performance track they typically stop dancing tango after a while).

 

[jennyisdancing]

No, getting rid of tandas wouldn't make everyone happy, quite the contrary. This is not about traditionalism, you will find that more experienced dancers generally favor the tanda system. Dancers are not insisting on it because they like traditions or customs - this is a straw man -, but because the tanda system actually contributes to a better tango experience. In order to achieve the state of complete immersion it is important to spend one or two tangos with exploring the momentary physical and emotional state of the partner, and slowly building up to the point where the momentary ability levels can be carefully matched with dance challenges. Entrega only happens after such careful preparation. On the other hand the tanda can't be too long, as it is both physically and emotionally difficult to "give everything" for a much longer period of time. Finally, by having natural break points both partners know how long their union is going to last and the pshychological unease coming with needing to negotiate the time to leave the other is minimized. I think the four tango tanda is quite optimal, three is too short to really get into business, five could become quite annoying when you end up with an unmatching partner.

Maybe your preference is for quantity as opposed to quality, but after a few years of dancing quantity becomes meaningless. Complete tango immersion rarely happens, but the tanda system allows to maximize the chance for its occurence (although I do know that some followers are unable to let it go and never achieve this state; unless they branch off on the performance track they typically stop dancing tango after a while).

I understand your reasoning...but if someone sits all night long due to the tanda system, then they are are having zero "tango experience" at all. That is my point.

 

[AndaBien]

... Frankly the tanda system adds to the problems. Sorry if the traditionalists are upset to hear me say that. Tango customs are beautiful - in Argentina. But I just don't think it's that workable a) in the American culture and b) especially with a gender imbalance. I know of some folks who revived a certain disbanded milonga, and they dispensed with tandas and cabeceos. People just go up and ask each other to dance each song, everyone gets to dance, and everyone's happy.

I agree. I dance less, and with fewer different partners with tandas than without. And I much prefer three-dance tandas to four-dance tandas, for the same reason.

I don't see why dancers need to have external controls on when they start or stop dancing.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

I understand your reasoning...but if someone sits all night long due to the tanda system, then they are are having zero "tango experience" at all. That is my point.

One may learn A LOT, and have a great tango experience being in a milonga and not dancing all night long.
I do not mean jennyisdancing or anyone personally because I don't really know their particular circumstances. I wish to say something in general. Lets say you are new to a community of people passionate about something, and you want to join them. You do not know much, and apparently, care very little for what those people care deeply about. On that grounds it will be very difficult for you to integrate.

 

[jennyisdancing]

One may learn A LOT, and have a great tango experience being in a milonga and not dancing all night long.
I do not mean jennyisdancing or anyone personally because I don't really know their particular circumstances. I wish to say something in general. Lets say you are new to a community of people passionate about something, and you want to join them. You do not know much, and apparently, care very little for what those people care deeply about. On that grounds it will be very difficult for you to integrate.

Well...if those people care deeply that they must have a traditionally structured milonga AND use that an excuse to avoid dancing with newbies, then you're right, it's not the place for me.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Well...if those people care deeply that they must have a traditionally structured milonga AND use that an excuse to avoid dancing with newbies, then you're right, it's not the place for me.

Jenny, again, I don't know you particular situation. Perhaps where you live you got a horrible, unwelcoming tango community with no means whatsoever for new people to integrate. I am not sure how it is possible if there are teachers, classes, practicas, milongas..... Perhaps there is even no community to speak about. Could also be that you did not give it enough try. One year is nothing at all in tango time. But tandas and cortinas are not to blame. If someone wants to try a new person out, he or she can dance one or two last songs of the tanda, after all.

 

[jennyisdancing]

Jenny, again, I don't know you particular situation. Perhaps where you live you got a horrible, unwelcoming tango community with no means whatsoever for new people to integrate. I am not sure how it is possible if there are teachers, classes, practicas, milongas..... Perhaps there is even no community to speak about. Could also be that you did not give it enough try. One year is nothing at all in tango time. But tandas and cortinas are not to blame. If someone wants to try a new person out, he or she can dance one or two last songs of the tanda, after all.

Yes, you're quite right about the option of asking someone for one or two songs that way. I rarely saw that happen at the venues I attended. And again, this is a thread about gender imbalance.

So what I am saying is, that if you're already starting out with a large surplus of followers, and on top of that, the few leaders quickly get booked up dancing three or four songs at a time (mostly with people they already know), then, mathematically speaking, it leaves very little opportunity for a new follower to get experience.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Yes, you're quite right about the option of asking someone for one or two songs that way. I rarely saw that happen at the venues I attended. And again, this is a thread about gender imbalance.

So what I am saying is, that if you're already starting out with a large surplus of followers, and on top of that, the few leaders quickly get booked up dancing three or four songs at a time (mostly with people they already know), then, mathematically speaking, it leaves very little opportunity for a new follower to get experience.

Experiences followers sit the whole night long at times too, ask anyone there. It is not always directly about math and numbers.
As for the gender imbalance, what in my opinion contributes to it is the fact that it takes a lot of time and effort, personal as well as communal, to develop a decent tango leader.

 

[quixotedlm]

Well...if those people care deeply that they must have a traditionally structured milonga AND use that an excuse to avoid dancing with newbies, then you're right, it's not the place for me.

I think Lily's point is not that we look at these phenomenon in a positive light alone despite its negative effects on ourselves - rather that one learn to empathize and understand why these are valued so much despite the ill side effects. The point is that if we aspire to join a club, we ought to appreciate the clubs ethos and eccentricities, and at least see why they make sense in a certain light.

An eg - joining the military is not for everyone. The ones that do want to join need to accept that there will be a boot camp, and there will be guns, and there will be physically grueling punishments. These are not 'nice' things - but these are the price one embraces to join this club.

Your attitude - that maybe this is not the right club for you - is rare and an excellent demonstration of healthy self esteem and healthy choice making!

 

[quixotedlm]

Maybe your preference is for quantity as opposed to quality, but after a few years of dancing quantity becomes meaningless. Complete tango immersion rarely happens, but the tanda system allows to maximize the chance for its occurence (although I do know that some followers are unable to let it go and never achieve this state; unless they branch off on the performance track they typically stop dancing tango after a while).

Maybe what is good for the individual isn't good for the community? In such cases, the individual behavior is characterized by the adjective "parasitic". If the dancers who learned skills through a given community are reluctant to nurture the younglings out of an obsession for a "fix", that seems to beg some serious questioning.

 

[Gssh]

I personally am not sure that this has anything to do with tandas or no tandas - i think i dance with more different people when there are tandas. After two tandas we usually stop dancing even if it is still very nice, while without tandas i tend to go for longer sets - i like really exploring and indulging in the connection. Also most followers expect more than one dance, and especially if they enjoy themselves i find it easier to tell them that i want to stop dancing when there is a cortina. What i have seen at milongas without tandas was usually a really stratified community, with more advanced people staying on the dancefloor with the same one or two partners for the whole evening and beginners just dancing one song. And i think that does a disservice to both - it might just be me, but i need at least 2 songs to get into the connection and to understand how her body and mind work.

Gssh