Is Pro Am becoming a sport of only the wealthy?

fascination said:
that depends, I guess....if you are going by the definition that Cal cites....it depends on things like: how mny days you are dancing, whether or not you want the meals...whether or not it is cheaper to pay the non-package price per heat and buy your own meals or not....dpeneds upon how much you dance...not sure the term is even worth using
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Right...I price it out- add up my cost being on package versus non package and see which is the better deal....obviously pro and his price per entry plus his expenses are outside of this...I have found that overall, with the number of entries I am doing that the package ends up being a better deal...I do like to know the price of the package....note however, that this is separate from pros fees...I am realizing that the reason for wholesale pricing is to allow pros/studios to make a little 'extra'...I don't think the comp benefits..
 
It's not about the competition benefiting it's about the pros use of time and energy. Pros don't compete for the pleasure of competing with their students— there is absolutely no incentive for the pro to be completely transparent with their pricing. The shorter you talk to someone about dropping $2500 plus for a 4 day competition the better.
 
I definitely think a pro has a right to be compensated for their time and energy...and a right to charge whatever they want... that being said, I can't remember the last time it only cost me $2500.... usually it costs at least twice that (and that's when I don't do a zillion heats)....and if a pro can't A) fake enjoyment for 4K(or much much more), and B) decide it is in fact worth it to do some explaining of the breakdown, they probably won't be doing much business, at least not with anyone with any intelligence....and most folks who have that kind of money laying around for fun aren't idiots...once in a while (for a while), but not many.... and not for long
 
That is the assumption that all of the money spent on a competition actually goes to the instructor. Do you really think an instructor will explain every upcharge they decide to have put into the cost of the competition? I've known some instructors that are absolutely terrible to their students at the studio and at the competition and are borderline abusive. People will spend the money if you drum up the experience and down play the cost as much as possible.

What I am talking about in a bare bones fictitious inaccurate inspired by true events kind of way.

Instructor A:

"Well they actually charge $35 per entry but I'm charging you a $35 fee on top of each entry because thats to make sure I get paid for my time while on floor. Remember I will only take you to a competition if you have at least 20 entries because otherwise it's a waste of my time. For my food I am charging a flat $150 per day we're at the competition to cover my snacking and the fact that I will never eat at a fast food or chain restaurant and require the best of foods. I am applying a surcharge to cover the hotel a top of the competition packaged because I want a buffer for my room service and miscellaneous services I want to engage in at the hotel we stay at. I am applying an additional surcharge to the airline ticket because I want to fly in first class and always fly first class. Oh yeah, I am also going to tack on an additional $500 fee for having to be around you all day and night because it can be pretty exhausting just being in your presence at times and you kinda annoy me with the whole forgetting of never changing routines on the floor and constant whining."

Instructor B:

"Each entry for this competition cost $70. I want to make sure you have a good time and dance a lot and enjoy yourself so I request that all my students dance at least 20 entries. I am budgeting money at most $150 a day for our food for our time there. The airfare will be estimated $450 for a round trip. The last fee is $500 which covers any additional expenditures that may arise along the way for the competition. Total comp cost $XXXX."

The shorter time talking about the cost the better. I worked at a studio for a brief bit of time and had been taught the most effective way to sale a competition or performance is to talk about experience and not price. Giving itemized breakdowns but not going too much into those breakdowns. No one ever, even friends that I know that do Pro-Am, likes discussing how much they are dropping per competition and is often extremely vague because ultimately a lot of people feel uncomfortable disclosing the cost of their ballroom habit to friends or family.
 
Rhythmdancer said:
Do you really think an instructor will explain every upcharge they decide to have put into the cost of the competition?
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Uhm, yeah, I do. Not a big deal. Mine does. It's a brief explanation because it's the same from comp to comp. I'm always slightly amused that he feels the need to do the complete break down in front of me, explaining it all as he's writing it down. I suppose he has learned from experience that that is what works best.
 
Rhythmdancer said:
That is the assumption that all of the money spent on a competition actually goes to the instructor. Do you really think an instructor will explain every upcharge they decide to have put into the cost of the competition? I've known some instructors that are absolutely terrible to their students at the studio and at the competition and are borderline abusive. People will spend the money if you drum up the experience and down play the cost as much as possible.

What I am talking about in a bare bones fictitious inaccurate inspired by true events kind of way.

Instructor A:

"Well they actually charge $35 per entry but I'm charging you a $35 fee on top of each entry because thats to make sure I get paid for my time while on floor. Remember I will only take you to a competition if you have at least 20 entries because otherwise it's a waste of my time. For my food I am charging a flat $150 per day we're at the competition to cover my snacking and the fact that I will never eat at a fast food or chain restaurant and require the best of foods. I am applying a surcharge to cover the hotel a top of the competition packaged because I want a buffer for my room service and miscellaneous services I want to engage in at the hotel we stay at. I am applying an additional surcharge to the airline ticket because I want to fly in first class and always fly first class. Oh yeah, I am also going to tack on an additional $500 fee for having to be around you all day and night because it can be pretty exhausting just being in your presence at times and you kinda annoy me with the whole forgetting of never changing routines on the floor and constant whining."

Instructor B:

"Each entry for this competition cost $70. I want to make sure you have a good time and dance a lot and enjoy yourself so I request that all my students dance at least 20 entries. I am budgeting money at most $150 a day for our food for our time there. The airfare will be estimated $450 for a round trip. The last fee is $500 which covers any additional expenditures that may arise along the way for the competition. Total comp cost $XXXX."

The shorter time talking about the cost the better. I worked at a studio for a brief bit of time and had been taught the most effective way to sale a competition or performance is to talk about experience and not price. Giving itemized breakdowns but not going too much into those breakdowns. No one ever, even friends that I know that do Pro-Am, likes discussing how much they are dropping per competition and is often extremely vague because ultimately a lot of people feel uncomfortable disclosing the cost of their ballroom habit to friends or family.
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that is your point?...do you really think anyone here expects or wants the first level of explanation? because they don't. ...and they also, unless truly vacant, know whether or not their pro finds them tedious and annoying....over 90% I would guess are simply asking for the brief breakdown...none of us want to waste our precious lesson time hearing about their pro's personal preferences in terms of why they charge what they charge and which movie they rented and what they had for dinner....and most students are also completely capable of understanding that pros have bills and expenses and simply charge for not being available for the other aspects of their lives while they are competing.....

but there is a big difference between "here's the bottom line" and an itemized bill with running commentary....and I still maintain that if you can't be part of the good experience, or at least fake it when you have to, there are only so many times that the sell of the venue/event will work....I can go to any of those places without someone who finds me tedious....and without someone who I find tedious....
 
What I get from my teacher looks more or less like this:

Entries/fees paid to competition: $xxx
His per dance fee x # of dances $xxx
My share of his expenses $xxx
His pro fee $xxx
TOTAL: $xxxx

Then I can add my own hotel/transport/food expenses, hair/make-up/tanning expenses, and photo/video expenses to come out with my overall total.

This works for us.

*****************
RE: Knowing the competition's prices: it helps me decide how much I want to dance, whether the package makes any sense or whether a la carte is the way to go, etc. I can't imagine asking my teacher to decide for me whether I want to get the package or go a la carte. He's got better things to do with his time than add up different scenarios for me and I respect him too much to ask him to waste his time that way.
 
I think (hope) increased transparency will be the expectation and practice as time progresses, in light of how consumerism has evolved in this nation (U.S.), and the fact that ballroom dancers are increasingly cost-conscious and it is becoming less common for them to just wave the magic wand and say, "sure, just tell me how much to write the check for."

My experience has been on the lower end of the transparency curve. I have always been given a base price ($y,000), which may or may not include a specified number of heats (10 or so), and then $x per heat. There was no breakdown of $x between what the comp actually charges and the studio cut, and no breakdown of the base cost into hotel/transportation/meals, etc. I did have one comp where the studio offered a non-VIP (tee hee) option where you did not stay at the hotel and certain meals were not included, but otherwise those components have not been removable (for me). Of course, I've never bothered to ask to remove those, but I feel certain the answer would be "no".

Having said that, my studio is always upfront with pricing information because they know I'm going to ask, and that it's going to be a much more painful conversation for them if I have to pry it out of them. (A former instructor once told me he quickly figured out that the best approach with me was to say, "Hey, here's this event I would like you to consider, and here's how much it is." i.e. just get it out of the way upfront).
 
IndyLady said:
Having said that, my studio is always upfront with pricing information because they know I'm going to ask, and that it's going to be a much more painful conversation for them if I have to pry it out of them. (A former instructor once told me he quickly figured out that the best approach with me was to say, "Hey, here's this event I would like you to consider, and here's how much it is." i.e. just get it out of the way upfront).
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Ha, my studio is like this with me too. Also, they know I track and check my budget on a regular basis, so they keep me up to date on what they have in their system, so i can compare. Their system was off by $200 constantly two years ago, and we finally got it settled, but they know I know where my money is going. And since i mostly did franchise comps recently (which started off as not my fav, but i don't mind them now), but am finally going back to independent comps, they know I pay attention to the comp costs (at least the comps that post their fees) and will be asking directly what kind of markup to expect. There will obviously be one, i just want to know it.
 
exactly....fortunately, I have now been to enough comps over the past decade that I know what single entries, multi-dances and packages cost... from the cheaper range to the pricier ones....so now, even if I am getting a non-broken down cost, I have a pretty darned good idea of how much everyone is making...and I am grateful to my previous pros who basically preferred that I figure it out myself... now I have a good sense of what is fair, generous and assinine...I am grateful for that as I think that starting in a very transparent system, I have a much better sense of what is going on....and for me it pretty much all comes down to how much I am willing to spend per comp and how much dancing I expect to get for that...I could not care less about the venue, the food, or the company...as long as I am dancing with someone who meets a basic level of pleasantness and above average competance
 
my current pro has a day fee but a smaller per heat fee...when I decide to compete again, I will run the price he quotes against what I know the organizer costs and what previous pros have charged and if it makes a reasonable amount of sense we are all good...I don't need a rationale from him...
 
you know, fasc, i think you have a point with starting with a transparent system. I started at an independent, then when i started up again, at a franchise. so I was aware of having to be aware! I know a few of the students at my studio don't really realize that you can look up fees on independent comps, and that you can ask the instructors for details on costs. then again, i'm a project manager IRL, so i have to deal with budgets and details, so maybe that's where i get it, LOL.
 
yep...and I have always told my pros that I don't begrudge them charging whatever they need to charge, particularly bearing in mind that two of them were/are studio owners...heck, I even deliberately paid the first one more than he charged...but, when push comes to shove, if what they charge per comp is more than I have and doesn't include enough dancing, well, it simply won't work for me....I am not there to vacation...I do that with my spouse...and it costs way less
 
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