Is there a good explanation of Naveira and Salas' tango analysis?

My take on this approach; is that you find that you can take any step you want
with any step the follower might make.

I did a workshop in Cambridge on this; on every 5th Step the follower called the step eg back ocho. so where-ever you were you led her into a back ocho or did one yourself.

it opens up new possibilities, even in close embrace.

The Matrix as Castro refers to it, is pretty much a cataloque of all possible combinations
but ignores the limitations of the embrace ( or assumes an elastic embrace.)

For me, it has been moderatley useful in that I have danced steps on the dance floor that no-one has ever taught (me) and without having done them before hand, at a practica for instance.
 
Do you have/read both Castro books?
I wonder it they they have different content? You are learning similar things from both books?
 
Apparently I gave the impression that I consider technical analysis of tango to be dangerous to the dance. Let me correct that. I love the idea of analyzing the possible moves (I like math) and I have nothing against nuevo as a style (I would be taking lessons in it, but right now am trying to become competent in close embrace).
My curiosity and interest in nuevo, and my appreciation of it from the sidelines, is one of the reasons why I'd like to plow through such a book if it exists. The closest thing I have is Salas' "Tango Fundamentals" DVDs, which aren't an analysis of the dance nor meant to be.
I do think would be dangerous for tango to have a syllabus IF that eventually comes to be accepted as defining what is and is not tango. I'd think the same about West Coast, Lindy hop, salsa, cumbia and several other dances.
I admire ballroom and don't think it's harmed by its syllabus, but that's a different world with its own priorities. The result is some beautiful, polished dances. Protecting a heritage is a good thing, but change and creativity are good too. I'd like to keep tango mostly wild.
 
I'd like to also thank everyone for their helpful and revealing posts. (I thought colgadas were something new!) Will look around for the reference materials mentioned and reply after digesting all this.
I greatly appreciate efforts to make tango or any dance more rational and clearer to understand. The traditional pedagogy in tango seems to be "do it this way" followed by demonstration and correction. That works too, but it's left to the student to connect the dots. Fortunately, there are now teachers who want you to understand at the same time you learn to dance.
 
plugger said:
The traditional pedagogy in tango seems to be "do it this way" followed by demonstration and correction. That works too, but it's left to the student to connect the dots. Fortunately, there are now teachers who want you to understand at the same time you learn to dance.
Click to expand...
Errr, yes. By developing a structured approach. Or, a syllabus.
 
I think I'd choose the middle path: Here are things that work - here are some variants you might like to try ...

I can get nothing out of Castro's (1st) book. He seems to take too many pages to state the obvious, but it isn't obvious what you might actually 'do' with the results.
 
OK, I guess I have to admit that I have read both volumes by Castro, and what's even worse, I think I have understood them :D.
So here's a brief summary (in the way I perceive it) of Volume I. If there's interest I will post about Volume 2 one of these days.

There are two kinds of steps in tango: open and cross. A cross step, by definition, is a step with disassociation. It's called cross because the foot which makes the step crosses the imaginary line between the feet when they are together immediately before the step. For example, an ocho is a sequence of two cross steps. (Castro considers front cross and back cross steps separately but this is really not needed when describing the basic structure.)

An open step is just a step which is not cross, that is, any step without disassociation, it could be side, forward or back.

When making a step, the partners can be in parallel feet (they step with the same foot) or in cross feet (they step with opposite feet). They can also move in same direction or in opposite directions. (The correct definition of opposite directions is actually a bit tricky, I will describe it below).

So here it goes the Fundamental Theorem of Tango :p:

Consider the following three sets ( "O" stands for open step and "C" for cross step):

A={O/O, C/O, C/C}

(Here, for example, O/O means that the leader takes open step and follower open step, and so on. I don't distinguish between C/O and O/C because the situation is completely symmetric.)

B={Parallel feet, Cross feet}

and

C={Same directions, Opposite directions}

Then (the theorem says) choosing one element from set A and one element from set B determines a unique element from C. Also, choosing one elements from set A and one element from set C determines a unique element from set B. It's quite simple, isn't it?:)

In other words, only the following 6 combinations are possible:

1. O/O, Par. feet, Same dir.
2. O/C, Par. feet, Opp. dir.
3. C/C, Par. feet, Same dir.
4. O/O, Cross feet, Opp. dir.
5. O/C, Cross feet, Same dir.
6. C/C, Cross feet, Opp. dir.

(Any other combination would destroy the embrace, any kind of embrace, in the sense that the partners won't face each other anymore.)

Now in order for this to be really true we have to define "opposite directions" carefully when one of the partners takes open step and the other cross step. Remember that open step can always be taken in different directions, forward, side or back. So, we will say that the partners have moved in opposite directions if the open step of one of the partners CAN be made in such a way so that the partners would have moved in opposite directions.

Finally, some examples. Salida Americana ( both partners take front cross step) is an example combination 3 above. The follower making back ochos while the leader makes side step is an example of combination 5. Combinations 4 and 6 occur when both the leader and the follower are doing giro around an axis between them (what is sometimes called counter giro). And so on, and so on...

Well, you might wonder where the follower's cross fits in the whole scheme. I might post about this after lunch 8-)....
 
Analysing the Analysers

borisvian13 said:
OK, I guess I have to admit that I have read both volumes by Castro, and what's even worse, I think I have understood them :D.
So here's a brief summary (in the way I perceive it) of Volume I. If there's interest I will post about Volume 2 one of these days.

[A large Cut]

Well, you might wonder where the follower's cross fits in the whole scheme. I might post about this after lunch 8-)....
Click to expand...

Oh please no more . . . . I know, I know, I don't have to read it!

But all this engages the thinking brain instead of the other senses.
Don't think it, feel it.

And while writing, why would anyone write, or read, an analysis
or explanation of an analysis? If it's necessary it's a failed analysis.
If the analysis needs explanation then surely the people to explain
clearly are the analysers themselves and if they haven't done that
why is any credence given to it?
 
JohnEm said:
Oh please no more . . . . I know, I know, I don't have to read it!

But all this engages the thinking brain instead of the other senses.
Don't think it, feel it.

And while writing, why would anyone write, or read, an analysis
or explanation of an analysis? If it's necessary it's a failed analysis.
If the analysis needs explanation then surely the people to explain
clearly are the analysers themselves and if they haven't done that
why is any credence given to it?
Click to expand...

Actually, at some level after a lot of practice, it does get in to muscle memory and moves past the thinking phase.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the open step, front cross and back cross analysis or approach. I don't think you need a whole book on it, just a couple of 1 hour classes with someone who can make you do some exercises in it. It's not particulary all that useful til you have at least some basic vocabulary (just my opinion) but after that can be fairly useful. At some point for someone who already has some body awareness going, the feeling of where the partner is in a type of movement will start to take over and the feeling of what the body should do momentum-wise relative to the partner, rather than the thinking of the movement itself.
 
borisvian13 said:
In other words, only the following 6 combinations are possible:

1. O/O, Par. feet, Same dir.
2. O/C, Par. feet, Opp. dir.
3. C/C, Par. feet, Same dir.
4. O/O, Cross feet, Opp. dir.
5. O/C, Cross feet, Same dir.
6. C/C, Cross feet, Opp. dir.

(Any other combination would destroy the embrace, any kind of embrace, in the sense that the partners won't face each other anymore.)

Now in order for this to be really true we have to define "opposite directions" carefully when one of the partners takes open step and the other cross step. Remember that open step can always be taken in different directions, forward, side or back. So, we will say that the partners have moved in opposite directions if the open step of one of the partners CAN be made in such a way so that the partners would have moved in opposite directions.
Click to expand...
Thanks for posting this. I find the geometric/topological aspects of tango to be just as interesting as the artistic aspects.

Would you elaborate more on how you define Same direction and Opposite direction in this system?

Basically, I'm having trouble understanding why going from parallel to cross system forces a change in the direction (ex: row 1 vs row 4 in your chart).
 
I appreciate this kind of information highly; it is so hard to find!
Thanks for posting!

But I get my brain twisted here....
When I started to dance we had a figure where both leader and follower were doing the ocho movements but to different directions.

Should it be like this? or am I puting it up wrongly?

C/C parallell opp dir
 
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