Is there a good explanation of Naveira and Salas' tango analysis?

[borisvian13]

Oh please no more . . . . I know, I know, I don't have to read it!

But all this engages the thinking brain instead of the other senses.
Don't think it, feel it.

And while writing, why would anyone write, or read, an analysis
or explanation of an analysis? If it's necessary it's a failed analysis.
If the analysis needs explanation then surely the people to explain
clearly are the analysers themselves and if they haven't done that
why is any credence given to it?

JohnEm, congratulations! You sound like a true tango hippie . And in fact I find that quite pleasing and *******ing, probably because I'm surrounded by too many tango yuppies

Seriously, I totally agree that I person who thinks about the structure when dancing doesn't really dance but rather performs a mechanical exercise, at best.

But in the same way a piano student needs to learn the scales first ( in other words, basic musical structures) and then hope that someday he will REALLY play music while FEELING it, the tango beginner needs to learn the basic structure of the dance first, and then move to the REALLY important stuff: embrace and walk, and of course feeling the music.

What I find puzzling is that so many tango teachers don't understand properly this basic structure and even most of those who understand it don't teach it. And they all get away with it. I mean, I would definitely find a piano teacher who doesn't teach scales quite inadequate, to put it mildly.

 

[AndaBien]

...What I find puzzling is that so many tango teachers don't understand properly this basic structure and even most of those who understand it don't teach it. And they all get away with it. I mean, I would definitely find a piano teacher who doesn't teach scales quite inadequate, to put it mildly.

I do think it's necessary for tango leaders to understand a structure of the dance, but there are other structures. A structure of dance is ultimately only a definition, a collection of categories. I use one that has much fewer elements, and I can explain it in much fewer words.

I've seen many dance students who wanted to approach dance movements from an "engineering" understanding, and that often hindered their progress.

 

[dchester]

I do think it's necessary for tango leaders to understand a structure of the dance, but there are other structures. A structure of dance is ultimately only a definition, a collection of categories. I use one that has much fewer elements, and I can explain it in much fewer words.

Exactly. I have my own structure, model, etc., but I still like learning about other models as well.

The "structure" that I use, consists (at the most elemental level) of foot movements, weight changes, and pivots. The crossing steps in Borisvian's model (assuming I understand him correctly), are diagonal steps in my model.

 

[JohnEm]

Seriously, I totally agree that I person who thinks about the structure when dancing doesn't really dance but rather performs a mechanical exercise, at best.

Agreed.

What I find puzzling is that so many tango teachers don't understand properly this basic structure and even most of those who understand it don't teach it. And they all get away with it. I mean, I would definitely find a piano teacher who doesn't teach scales quite inadequate, to put it mildly.

What I find puzzling is your need to find a basic structure.
Structural analysis may help choreographers
but not for an improvised dance;
learn by doing (dancing), not by thinking.

Anyway, the basic structure is a hug,
albeit a modified hug,
so both partners can move comfortably together.

 

[plugger]

I'm not looking for a paint-by-numbers approach, but for me, understanding how a dance works is important. My teacher starts her leaders out with several months of walking until it becomes second nature to transition smoothly between inside and out, crossed feet and parallel, etc., while maintaining good posture and awareness of one's partner and the music. Leaders are expected to always know how the follower is weighted and what is possible at that instant. Ochos and turns are added slowly and practiced until done well and confidently; then come the cruzada, sacada, carpa, and so on. Having been taught that way, I feel pretty aware of what my partner and I are doing on the floor and am not thinking abstractly about tango structure when I should pay attention to the lady, the music and nearby couples. Off the floor, though, I wonder, for instance, whether a step that works to the left (right) would also work to the right (left), or thinking of ways to link certain moves together. It sounds here that Castro's book is a tough read, but it might provide some help in matters like that.
Couple of questions: Is the analysis/matrix in Castro's books the same as that of Naveira and Salas? Also, Castro's web page advertises videos as well as his books; do the vids deal with the tango analysis or just teach patterns, or both?

 

[JohnEm]

. . . . . .
Having been taught that way, I feel pretty aware of what my partner and I are doing on the floor and am not thinking abstractly about tango structure when I should pay attention to the lady, the music and nearby couples. Off the floor, though, I wonder, for instance, whether a step that works to the left (right) would also work to the right (left), or thinking of ways to link certain moves together. It sounds here that Castro's book is a tough read, but it might provide some help in matters like that.

You would find out far more by attempting those thoughts with
a practice partner than ever reading obtuse explanations in a book.

 

[bastet]

You would find out far more by attempting those thoughts with
a practice partner than ever reading obtuse explanations in a book.

I would agree with that, which is why I suggest a class rather than a book on it. IMO a cheaper and much more effective way to approach it.

 

[JohnEm]

Practical Experimentation

I would agree with that, which is why I suggest a class rather than a book on it. IMO a cheaper and much more effective way to approach it.

Why is the answer on here always to "take a class"?
Classes cannot address individual needs, nor individual development,
but prescriptively cater only for the more or less common denominator.

No matter what the subject of learning, eventually you cease class based
learning and enter a period of learning through life and self-improvement.
It's perverse, that word again, that a very personally individual dance of
connection and partnership is continually (b)locked by incessant classes.

Experiment, improvise, explore movement together with practice partners.
Watch others (& video) and find out what works by dancing your own
Tango. Think of it like a Physics Experiment if you must! And it costs
nothing, you learn at your own pace from your own experience and
gain experience that no class can teach.

 

[AndaBien]

...Experiment, improvise, explore movement together with practice partners. Watch others (& video) and find out what works by dancing your own Tango. Think of it like a Physics Experiment if you must! And it costs nothing, you learn at your own pace from your own experience and gain experience that no class can teach.

I completely agree. However, in my long experience teaching many types of dances, most students are simply unwilling, for whatever reason, to drive their own learning process. They seem to think that just by being in classes that they will make improvement. It's one of my pet peeves about teaching dance.

 

[AndaBien]

Regarding the original poster, I suggest that the approach is overly analytical, but I admire and encourage that he's doing his own work.

 

[bastet]

Why is the answer on here always to "take a class"?
Classes cannot address individual needs, nor individual development,
but prescriptively cater only for the more or less common denominator.

No matter what the subject of learning, eventually you cease class based
learning and enter a period of learning through life and self-improvement.
It's perverse, that word again, that a very personally individual dance of
connection and partnership is continually (b)locked by incessant classes.

Experiment, improvise, explore movement together with practice partners.
Watch others (& video) and find out what works by dancing your own
Tango. Think of it like a Physics Experiment if you must! And it costs
nothing, you learn at your own pace from your own experience and
gain experience that no class can teach.

Well, since this particular type of class is about experimentation, I don't see the problem.

Too many times I see people "try to figure things out on their own" or "I can figure it out on the floor, I don't need a class" (surely they're so good as to be able to do that) and just end up doing stuff wrong or compensating for what they DIDN'T understand about a concept and guess who gets the brunt of that- their dance partner, usually by way of being put in pain.

Yes experiment, but I am an advocate for at least getting the basic idea down of something you aren't familiar with in a setting where someone can help you at least not hurt others first before taking it out on your own. Perhaps it's just my experience as a follower that makes me think this way.

 

[JohnEm]

Well, since this particular type of class is about experimentation, I don't see the problem.

"Class" and "experimentation" are contradictory.
Experimentation in classes usually amounts to moves.
Even teachers who claim not to teach moves, often teach moves.

And teachers teach their own style which is ok when starting out
as you have to start somewhere. However ongoing classes with
different 'flavour of the moment' teachers, each teaching their own style,
their own embrace and axis orientation, just becomes confusing.

What's happened to owning your own dance?
After all teacher isn't dancing, you are.

Too many times I see people "try to figure things out on their own" or "I can figure it out on the floor, I don't need a class" (surely they're so good as to be able to do that) and just end up doing stuff wrong or compensating for what they DIDN'T understand about a concept and guess who gets the brunt of that- their dance partner, usually by way of being put in pain.

Not sure about the pain but difficulty maybe and it depends on
the partners. There shouldn't be pain, try in practice hold if it isn't working.
I haven't found a class yet that can avoid the problems,
and dancing with teacher can cause more problems than solutions.

Nor am I talking about working it out on the floor in social dancing.
The OP obviously knows enough to think about it, he just needs to
try by practising the options. He'll soon find out what works.

And technically there is no "doing stuff wrong", I'm not saying no class
ever (though one learner with one teacher is better) but I am saying
there is a limit to learning in classes. Find a practice partner who suits,
who will say if they are in pain, will be constructive even, and work
(treat it as purposeful play) together.

Yes experiment, but I am an advocate for at least getting the basic idea down of something you aren't familiar with in a setting where someone can help you at least not hurt others first before taking it out on your own.

I think the OP already has and can dance the basic ideas.

 

[opendoor]

Seems you are answering rather fundamentally. The classes of Mauricio Castro´s instructors (he´s got a worldwide organisation) really can be recommended. You will rarely find an elaborate syllabus than his one. It´s actually not Naveira teaching, but almost a great deal of him for a low price. And the didactics are so contradictional (you know I´m interested in dance didactics) to the monotony traditional talk.

 

[bastet]

"Class" and "experimentation" are contradictory.
Experimentation in classes usually amounts to moves.
Even teachers who claim not to teach moves, often teach moves.

And teachers teach their own style which is ok when starting out
as you have to start somewhere. However ongoing classes with
different 'flavour of the moment' teachers, each teaching their own style,
their own embrace and axis orientation, just becomes confusing.

What's happened to owning your own dance?
After all teacher isn't dancing, you are.

Not sure about the pain but difficulty maybe and it depends on
the partners. There shouldn't be pain, try in practice hold if it isn't working.
I haven't found a class yet that can avoid the problems,
and dancing with teacher can cause more problems than solutions.

Nor am I talking about working it out on the floor in social dancing.
The OP obviously knows enough to think about it, he just needs to
try by practising the options. He'll soon find out what works.

And technically there is no "doing stuff wrong", I'm not saying no class
ever (though one learner with one teacher is better) but I am saying
there is a limit to learning in classes. Find a practice partner who suits,
who will say if they are in pain, will be constructive even, and work
(treat it as purposeful play) together.


I think the OP already has and can dance the basic ideas.

You'd be surprised. I found it very easy to understand the basic concept of the open step, back/front cross exercises (similar to what BT said in a post)the first time I did them but I have seen otherwise very intelligent people just "not get it" as an idea. That's usually why I advocate at least a short class to work through the concept first before taking it out on their own.

I have, in fact, had classes in exactly what you speak about. No moves taught, experimentation only...on more than one occasion. I actually seek those types of classes out.

 

[JohnEm]

I have, in fact, had classes in exactly what you speak about. No moves taught, experimentation only...on more than one occasion. I actually seek those types of classes out.

Would you care to explain what happens in such a class
and what experimentation is taught?