Keeping Your Energy Directed "Up"

[dchester]

I have problems with leaders whose tummies are so dropped after years of being underused that they cannot stabilise their posture or balance readily. They wobble causing me to struggle to maintain my axis. I'm not referring to men who are overweight as this applies equally to men who are thin. It is a matter of physical condition and show dancers have that in spades.

I'm not understanding what you are trying to say in this paragraph. You are complaining about leaders who have dropped tummies, but then say you are not referring to men who are overweight.

FWIW, I am overweight, and don't feel it hurts me in social dancing. In fact one time a follower told me that she thought my weight might be helping my dance, as she said it seems to make me very stable, and she feels very safe to do moves with me that she doesn't normally do with other dancers (I think she was refering to single axis turns).

 

[Peaches]

FWIW, I have experience the same. Either end of the weight spectrum can be problematic, but it's the overly thin guys I feel like I'm going to crush or squish. I'm not a particularly small person. And I hate it when men who are smaller than me lead a volcada...it is absolutely terrifying. Guys who are bigger just feel more solid and secure, and I have no fear about any sorts of moves.

 

[Madahlia]

FWIW, I have experience the same. Either end of the weight spectrum can be problematic, but it's the overly thin guys I feel like I'm going to crush or squish. I'm not a particularly small person. And I hate it when men who are smaller than me lead a volcada...it is absolutely terrifying. Guys who are bigger just feel more solid and secure, and I have no fear about any sorts of moves.

I know what you mean about scary volcadas! But then I still find them scary no matter who's leading them.
Sometimes a guy who is strong can compensate for poor technique by using strength. That's also a bit scary. But a small guy can compensate for lack of physical strength by developing good technique and choosing moves well.

FWIW, I am overweight, and don't feel it hurts me in social dancing. In fact one time a follower told me that she thought my weight might be helping my dance, as she said it seems to make me very stable, and she feels very safe to do moves with me that she doesn't normally do with other dancers (I think she was refering to single axis turns).

It really, really isn't a matter of weight. Well-covered men can have plenty of muscle underneath that keeps them stable. And skinny men can also have very poor muscle tone in the abdominals so they can''t always hold themselves stable. In fact, I think it might be more noticeable in tall thin men as they have a higher centre of gravity and can't always hold it steady. I don't think I've had so many problems with plump men, so there is probably truth in what you say.

 

[hbboogie1]

I know what you mean about scary volcadas! But then I still find them scary no matter who's leading them.
Sometimes a guy who is strong can compensate for poor technique by using strength. That's also a bit scary. But a small guy can compensate for lack of physical strength by developing good technique and choosing moves well.

It really, really isn't a matter of weight. Well-covered men can have plenty of muscle underneath that keeps them stable. And skinny men can also have very poor muscle tone in the abdominals so they can''t always hold themselves stable. In fact, I think it might be more noticeable in tall thin men as they have a higher centre of gravity and can't always hold it steady. I don't think I've had so many problems with plump men, so there is probably truth in what you say.

If everyone would respect the floor and stop performing endless volcadas some problems would end. Volcadas were intended for the stage not for social dances. Now it’s spreading like the swine flu mainly because every instructor on the planet is teaching it. So sad.

 

[Peaches]

If everyone would respect the floor and stop performing endless volcadas some problems would end. Volcadas were intended for the stage not for social dances. Now it’s spreading like the swine flu mainly because every instructor on the planet is teaching it. So sad.

Just what problems regarding relative size and the feelings of security (or lack thereof) would end if people respected the floor? Or do you mean that just by the fact that volcadas aren't done, the problems won't be enountered?

Volcadas on a social floor can either be problematic...or truly not, if they're done with respect to the floor space available and the dynamic of the room and in keeping with the line of dance. In short, done with respect to floorcraft and etiquette they present to problem. As with so many things, the problem isn't volcadas or even volcadas in a social setting pe se, but idiot dancers who don't respect etiquette.

 

[dchester]

If everyone would respect the floor and stop performing endless volcadas some problems would end. Volcadas were intended for the stage not for social dances. Now it’s spreading like the swine flu mainly because every instructor on the planet is teaching it. So sad.

It sounds like the volcada virus has moved from the East coast to the West. A couple years back (when I first started tango), it seemed like the main move that people were doing (so of course, I had to learn it as well). Things seem to have cooled off a bit with them, as most people around here only do them occasionally now, instead of 20 times per song (maybe I'm exagerating a bit).

When in Buenos Aires, I was talking to one Argentine couple (teachers) about some of the valid moves at traditional milongas (after my faux pas of doing leg wraps). Volcadas, was one of the moves they complained a lot about, so I asked why they taught them. They said the only reason they teach volcadas, is because organizers request it. They said that they do study all forms of tango, including nuevo moves like volcadas, but they feel that tango is really about the connection, and not the steps (my guess is that when you're as good at the steps as they are, the connection is probably the only thing left to work at).

That being said, I do side more with Peaches, because IMO, volcadas don't always disrupt the dance floor.

 

[mkjohnson]

Re: volcadas - I have a mixed response to this, probably because I've only been dancing a few months. I've had partners get frustrated with me because I didn't follow the volcada lead correctly (likely because I didn't know what a volcada was at that point) - in turn I was frustrated because my confusion/misstep held up the line of dance.

Later a different leader told me he was glad I'd gotten more comfortable with volcadas and after my confused look, explained that he'd led it twice but it was so small and so quick, I hadn't really noticed that that's what it was. I would think the latter example might be okay if floor conditions are right for it?

 

[Peaches]

Yeah, that's kind of my feeling. If they're done with a speed/size appropriate to the floor, I don't see what the problem is. Small, crowded floors can handle small, quick volcadas; with some guys they hardly feel like a volcada at all. When there are big, open floors with plenty of room (and they do happen sometimes), I see no problem with bigger, longer ones. It's not like they're disrupting anything.

That said, it seemed like a while ago everyone was adding volcadas all over the freakin' place. I love them, but in moderation. And ideally they compliment the music. Often they're just kind of thrown in anywhere. But then again, it seems like most things that are led don't fit the music, except perhaps to be on the beat.

 

[hbboogie1]

Just what problems regarding relative size and the feelings of security (or lack thereof) would end if people respected the floor? Or do you mean that just by the fact that volcadas aren't done, the problems won't be enountered?

Volcadas on a social floor can either be problematic...or truly not, if they're done with respect to the floor space available and the dynamic of the room and in keeping with the line of dance. In short, done with respect to floorcraft and etiquette they present to problem. As with so many things, the problem isn't volcadas or even volcadas in a social setting pe se, but idiot dancers who don't respect etiquette.

_? Or do you mean that just by the fact that volcadas aren't done, the problems won't be enountered?

That’s exactly what I mean, they shouldn’t be done at all unless the couple is giving a performance.
Saturday night I watched a woman execute 35 boleo’s in one song on a crowded floor that’s disrespecting dance etiquette.

As with so many things, the problem isn't volcadas or even volcadas in a social setting pe se, but idiot dancers who don't respect etiquette.

You can’t change the rules and say it’s OK to do volcadas as long as you do them small and don’t kick anyone. The rule is no show moves on a social floor otherwise you’re not “respecting the floor” or Tango Etiquette and volcadas are show moves.

When a couple disrupts the floor for whatever the reason and there are many it's not considered proper etiquette. I know the problem isn’t going to disappear but with all the show crap that ‘s being taught today it’s only going to get worse.



“Etiquette is not something that you change "You can deny all you want that there is etiquette, and a lot of people do in everyday life. But if you behave in a way that offends the people you're trying to deal with, they will stop dealing with you...There are plenty of people who say, 'We don't care about etiquette, but we can't stand the way so-and-so behaves, and we don't want him around!' Etiquette doesn't have the great sanctions that the law has. But the main sanction we do have is in not dealing with these people and isolating them because their behavior is unbearable."
Judith Martin “Miss Manners 1995”

 

[dchester]

You can’t change the rules and say it’s OK to do volcadas as long as you do them small and don’t kick anyone. The rule is no show moves on a social floor otherwise you’re not “respecting the floor” or Tango Etiquette and volcadas are show moves.

When a couple disrupts the floor for whatever the reason and there are many it's not considered proper etiquette. I know the problem isn’t going to disappear but with all the show crap that ‘s being taught today it’s only going to get worse.

Doing show or nuevo moves is not against the etiquette at the milongas I've been to on the East coast. Disrupting the floor is what is against the etiquette here, (well at least at the milongas I've been to). The reality is that a lot of the Buenos Aires codes, just don't apply here (whether they should or not, is a different debate).

 

[Peaches]

_? Or do you mean that just by the fact that volcadas aren't done, the problems won't be enountered?

That’s exactly what I mean, they shouldn’t be done at all unless the couple is giving a performance.
Saturday night I watched a woman execute 35 boleo’s in one song on a crowded floor that’s disrespecting dance etiquette.

As with so many things, the problem isn't volcadas or even volcadas in a social setting pe se, but idiot dancers who don't respect etiquette.

You can’t change the rules and say it’s OK to do volcadas as long as you do them small and don’t kick anyone. The rule is no show moves on a social floor otherwise you’re not “respecting the floor” or Tango Etiquette and volcadas are show moves.

When a couple disrupts the floor for whatever the reason and there are many it's not considered proper etiquette. I know the problem isn’t going to disappear but with all the show crap that ‘s being taught today it’s only going to get worse.



“Etiquette is not something that you change "You can deny all you want that there is etiquette, and a lot of people do in everyday life. But if you behave in a way that offends the people you're trying to deal with, they will stop dealing with you...There are plenty of people who say, 'We don't care about etiquette, but we can't stand the way so-and-so behaves, and we don't want him around!' Etiquette doesn't have the great sanctions that the law has. But the main sanction we do have is in not dealing with these people and isolating them because their behavior is unbearable."
Judith Martin “Miss Manners 1995”

Well, then, I suppose we are at an impasse and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

While they may have started out as show moves originally, I consider volcadas that do not disrupt the LOD or disrupt the floor to be perfectly acceptable social moves now. And, as such, I do not consider them a breach of etiquette. I don't consider them disruptive merely for being volcadas.

We seem, then, to have a fundamental difference of opinion that stems from differences of how we define things. I refuse to make a list of "Always Acceptable" or "Never Acceptable" moves based solely on their origins. You can call that "changing etiquette" if you want; I consider it not following rules for the sake of following rules, and looking at what something actually means in terms of the floor and the conditions.

*shrug*

 

[Peaches]

Doing show or nuevo moves is not against the etiquette at the milongas I've been to on the East coast. Disrupting the floor is what is against the etiquette here, (well at least at the milongas I've been to). The reality is that a lot of the Buenos Aires codes, just don't apply here (whether they should or not, is a different debate).

Oh, jeebus. Here we go again. :roll:

Somebody just shoot me now.

 

[dchester]

Oh, jeebus. Here we go again. :roll:

Somebody just shoot me now.

I thought I was more or less agreeing with you.

:friend:

 

[hbboogie1]

Doing show or nuevo moves is not against the etiquette at the milongas I've been to on the East coast. Disrupting the floor is what is against the etiquette here, (well at least at the milongas I've been to). The reality is that a lot of the Buenos Aires codes, just don't apply here (whether they should or not, is a different debate).

I guess it depends on what you consider “disturbing the floor” I don’t need to be in BsAs to know when someone’s disturbing the floor I’m dancing on. 35 boleo’s 20 volcadas pausing for 30 seconds to do the old spinning jumping and kicking, talking while they dance, giving lessons, the list goes on.
When’s the last time you paid $10 to see that movie you’ve been waiting for and the kid sitting in front of you is texting during the entire show? Bad movie etiquette no matter what country you’re in and the same holds true for tango. Bad behavior is bad behavior and not respecting those around you is rude no matter where you are.

 

[dchester]

I guess it depends on what you consider “disturbing the floor” I don’t need to be in BsAs to know when someone’s disturbing the floor I’m dancing on. 35 boleo’s 20 volcadas pausing for 30 seconds to do the old spinning jumping and kicking, talking while they dance, giving lessons, the list goes on.
When’s the last time you paid $10 to see that movie you’ve been waiting for and the kid sitting in front of you is texting during the entire show? Bad movie etiquette no matter what country you’re in and the same holds true for tango. Bad behavior is bad behavior and not respecting those around you is rude no matter where you are.

I agree 100% with your first and last sentences.
My main points are that:
1) I really don't make a distinction between some clown doing mollinettes and ochos in place for a minute backing everyone up, or some other clown backing everyone up by doing leg wraps and volcadas for a minute. The net result is the same.
2) If someone violates a Buenos Aires code, but doesn't cause a disruption/issue here, I don't have a problem with it. Just like if someone wants to text during a movie, at long as it doesn't make any noise, I couldn't care less.

Now if his cell phone or pager starts beeping . . .

:evil: