"Lead-and Follow" -- morphs to "connection"?

[Smooth Dancer]

I'm curious how the initial, social-dance notion of "lead-and-follow" matures as couples progress through the competitive levels. (Actually, I've never liked the term, prefering instead something like "suggest-and-respond.") As my partner and I attempt to improve, L&F seems to become more an issue of "connection," and is definitely an involved topic. In particular:

LADIES: What kind of "lead" (or whatever term you choose) do you really need/want/enjoy from your partner? What makes it "good"? What goes through you mind (if anything) that lets you tune into "what is this lead suggesting"? Do you try to identify the particular pattern, or just rely heavily on the gentleman's lead? (Gents, are you listening?)

GENTLEMEN: Upon what do you concentrate, or upon which techniques do you rely, to suggest what your lady should do next? (Ladies, do they really DO this?)

Any takers?

 

[bia]

What goes through you mind (if anything) that lets you tune into "what is this lead suggesting"? Do you try to identify the particular pattern, or just rely heavily on the gentleman's lead?

The less that goes through my mind as far as a particular step, the better. I can be thinking of technical things, but if I'm thinking about the step, I'm either anticipating or late, and I'm certainly not responding fluidly to my partner. If I'm following well, I'm often not aware of what a particular step was even after I've done it. In the moment, the mind gets in the way, and it needs to be about my body in connection to his body. That said, I don't think it's entirely about "relying heavily on the gentleman's lead," in that I am likely to follow a step better if I know it. Then it's about muscle memory -- my body knows what to do in response to the suggestion from him, rather than having to be led through every little bit of the step (which can work, too, from a good leader, for a step I don't know, but it's not likely to produce the same level of dancing as when my body is doing something it's done before).

LADIES: What kind of "lead" (or whatever term you choose) do you really need/want/enjoy from your partner? What makes it "good"?

What makes it "good" is the comfort and confidence that I'm safe in turning of the conscious step-aware part of my brain. If I can trust that what I'm getting from him will be clear enough that I can just let my body do what it feels, that's when it works. I can't say specifically what he's doing to make it feel that way. But when I feel like I'm getting confusing or contradictory information from him, that's when I get pulled out of my body and back into my head, and the flow is broken.

 

[fascination]

I do favor, much more, the notion of connection over lead and follow...as well as the concept of "suggestion" over insistance, particularly now that I am beginning open smooth...on any floor, I don't appreciate an insistance involving force, as it usually undermines my balance and my confidence...if I am connected, I understand where we are going and the length of stride we are going to use ...I understand the suggestion that I spin, but I get to decide how much I spin and how to paint it so to speak...connection is the magic and the art for me and I prefer it to lead and follow in terms of how I think of it and respond to it...which of course won't happen well if the other party isn't in that space

 

[little watcher]

I have recently noticed that if my partner (leader) just "thinks intentionally" what he wants me to do, I get a clearer idea, early enough in order to respond the way he intends -- with a much higher percentage of accuracy

 

[debmc]

I like the terms "connection" and "suggest and respond" that were posted above. That is a great way of capturing what is typically called lead and follow. The term just is filled with the idea that if the step is not completed, it is someone's fault.. either it was not lead right, or not followed correctly. But to couch it in different terms, makes it seem more like an interplay between two dancers where things can change at any moment from the designated path, and that can be ok, and even good.

 

[TallTenDancer]

As I've had more and more lessons, I've morphed somewhat from actively trying to communicate what I want the follow to do, to just getting myself[\i] to dance the figures correctly and trust her to figure out what she needs to do from the signals that I generate automatically as part of the figure.

 

[GGinrhinestones]

I'm curious how the initial, social-dance notion of "lead-and-follow" matures as couples progress through the competitive levels. ... As my partner and I attempt to improve, L&F seems to become more an issue of "connection," and is definitely an involved topic.

What a great topic! Actually, I was wondering what people here thought about this not too long ago, after my teacher looked me in the eye and said, "stop trying to dance lead/follow. We're past that point - it's about connection, not me leading you around the floor."

This was a hugely eye-opening moment for me, and yet so tiny, and so many dance moments are. Basically, you're absolutely right that lead-and-follow matures as couples progress, especially in the competition realm. I am still pondering exactly what this means, but at a very basic level, I understand it to mean that I know my part and the steps, but he is in charge of the timing - and that timing is reached through connection, not "lead". It's forward pressure and responding to his physical actions as a trigger, rather than him telling me what we are doing next, if that makes sense. I should specify that I am dancing rhythm, not smooth or standard, where things might be different, but IME it isn't, much - the "lead" still starts to disappear the higher up in level you get, to be replaced by more of a connection. The way I think about it best is that in "lead-follow", one is leading and one is following. With "connection", you are two parts of a whole.

As for what kind of "lead" I prefer -I agree with all of the above. Tell me when to go, but stay out of my way and let me go without your help or interference. Every so often there is a step or particular move that requires help, obviously, but even then it's about greater connection, not a stronger "lead".

 

[wooh]

So loving what Fasc said...

 

[chomsky]

smoothdancer, thank you for posing this question so eloquently and thank you guys for trying to clarify it for us newcomers!!!

 

[Subliminal]

So I'm sneaking in on this thread as kind of an outsider... never did competition, haven't done BR in a while. But as AT is known as one of THE connection dances, I wanted to share with you about this lecture/class I went to last year.

The class was run by a teacher who spent a lot of time down in Argentina studying with the old master tango dancers there. He noticed something when dancing with the milongueras. (the elder generation of lady tango dancers, some with 50+ years of dancing experience) The fierce old ladies would go wherever the step was lead, but they were in complete control of the dance... including the positioning of the leader. He found that they would put HIM where they needed him to be. Often it was done so subtly he wouldn't even notice until he thought about it later. They weren't back-leading. They didn't need to know the step. After years and years of experience in connection, they could direct the leader where he needed to go, just by telling him through their connection. An endless feedback loop... the leader sends the signal, the follower listens and responds... the leader listens and follows in turn.

 

[chomsky]

So I'm sneaking in on this thread as kind of an outsider... never did competition, haven't done BR in a while. But as AT is known as one of THE connection dances, I wanted to share with you about this lecture/class I went to last year.

The class was run by a teacher who spent a lot of time down in Argentina studying with the old master tango dancers there. He noticed something when dancing with the milongueras. (the elder generation of lady tango dancers, some with 50+ years of dancing experience) The fierce old ladies would go wherever the step was lead, but they were in complete control of the dance... including the positioning of the leader. He found that they would put HIM where they needed him to be. Often it was done so subtly he wouldn't even notice until he thought about it later. They weren't back-leading. They didn't need to know the step. After years and years of experience in connection, they could direct the leader where he needed to go, just by telling him through their connection. An endless feedback loop... the leader sends the signal, the follower listens and responds... the leader listens and follows in turn.

just luuuuuuuuuuuuuv this!

 

[DonMickey84]

Ladies and gentlemen,

1. What is the absolute correct "lead-and-follow" concept? A) The man moves the lady to the required movement, or B) He suggests the movement for her to move and follows her, or C) ...

2. Where the gentlleman's right hand is placed? A) Under the Lady's left shoulder's blade, or B) On the Lady's back just under the line of her arm, or C) ...

3. How to use the thumb of the man left hand's and the lady's right hand's? A) Thumb together, or B) Crossed and pointed down, or C) ...

Help me please! I love you guys! Thank you so much...

 

[ViviDancer]

Mm, my teacher does not believe in lead and follow. He is perfectly capable in doing so, even with someone who has barely any experience. But he insists that it is not just the man's job to lead, but for both man & lady to sync.

@DonMickey mm I personally think the answers to all your questions are more to your preference than definite. Where the gentleman's right hand is placed is in relation to your arm length, lady's shoulder length, position between both bodies and etc. But as a norm, I would use under the shoulder blade.

As for the thumb, I heard that thumbs together provides better connection. However, I pretty much failed to dance at all when I tried that, so I dance crossed and pointed down. There again, it is your preference. My partner dances with her pinky finger between my index and middle finger while the rest are between my thumb and index finger too. Again, preference

 

[bia]

Ladies and gentlemen,

1. What is the absolute correct "lead-and-follow" concept? A) The man moves the lady to the required movement, or B) He suggests the movement for her to move and follows her, or C) ...

Much more (B) than (A), at least if the lady is a halfway decent dancer or ever hopes to become one. With (A), he's going to get exhausted dragging her around, she's going to get irritated feeling pushed and pulled around the floor, and neither of them is going to be able to dance fully. There may be short-term exceptions -- e.g., if a much more advanced leader is trying to move a beginning follower through a step that she's never done before. But that's nowhere near what's being discussed here as "connection," which is closer to (B).

3. How to use the thumb of the man left hand's and the lady's right hand's? A) Thumb together, or B) Crossed and pointed down, or C) ...

Here you go -- 5000+ posts on this question: thumbs together or no

 

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I'm curious how the initial, social-dance notion of "lead-and-follow" matures as couples progress through the competitive levels. (Actually, I've never liked the term, prefering instead something like "suggest-and-respond.") As my partner and I attempt to improve, L&F seems to become more an issue of "connection," and is definitely an involved topic.

It's a general concept and really has nothing to do with whether social or competitive dancing is involved.