Leaders. How was your Tango journey?

[Bailango]

Interesting sub-discussion!

Recently, my partner and I have been working with another teacher alongside our coach. He isn't our coach's dance partner, but has his own teaching partner (also his life partner), and has a totally different tango pedigree. Part of that pedigree is having been taught by a milonguero who started in the 1940s. He recently proposed a system of generations (longer than human generations, more like 35- or 40-year chunks):

1st-generation tango teachers, like his master, made everything up. They had no teachers! They watched dances around them – African traditional, European salon, colonial folkloric, all of it – stealing and sharing ideas, and also trying to outdo one another by keeping secrets. They accept "impossible": Contrary to some claims, they were using the elastic embrace and dancing boleos, ganchos, patadas, back sacadas, soltadas, saltos, and even lifts in the 1920s. When my new teacher started his apprenticeship with his master, the first steps he was taught were crazy stuff that would out-crazy tango nuevo!

2nd-generation teachers, including my new teacher and my coach, learned from 1st-generation teachers. They were shown steps and told to figure them out, and then judged on how well they figured them out. They were not taught technique. Most of their tango journey consisted not of making up steps, like the 1st generation, but of classifying steps and developing technique for steps. Many acquired technique from formal dance instruction in other styles – especially ballet! (My coach is a former ballerina.)

3rd-generation teachers, like most under 50 these days, learned from 2nd-generation teachers. They were taught steps with technique, and had to make up nothing in the dance. Their focus was (is) pedagogical methodologies: How to teach steps and technique quickly and efficiently to anybody who signs up for a class. This is the generation we're discussing when we talk about added problems and solutions. Where the 1st generation stole steps from other dances and the 2nd generation stole technique from other dances, the 3rd generation stole instructional methods and studio philosophies from other dances, most often ballroom dances.

I'm not claiming that this is right, only that it makes sense to me.

Anyway, my two instructors both expressed a concern that if this pattern keeps up, nobody in tango will be an artist. They'll all be dance robots dancing perfectly classified steps with overly clean technique. So, our new work consists of rolling things back, the teachers showing my partner and me what's possible and challenging us to be creative, not technical. It remains to be seen if any of the people involved are actually capable of this, but it'll be fun to try.

I am not at all surprised by how the dance develops and how teaching evolves when it comes to a non formalized dance of the people. Whether that’s hiphop or tango or salsa. That’s why when people refer to something from 1940s or 50s, my first reaction is you are projecting today’s approaches into the past. That includes social dancing too.

When dancing is just part of a culture and what you do it because everyone around you is doing that. People learn from people. You may like dancing or not like it but you can’t avoid being exposed to it. You get exposed to it very early. It is only when it starts getting an audience outside its cultural home and outsiders want to learn it “teachers” and “teaching schools” start to evolve. A few enterprising practitioners spot opportunity and figure a way to make a buck. When it starts getting more popular that is when the “formal” appearing set up starts evolving. If the popularity doesn’t wane and wider its starts getting indulged in outside the confines of cultural home region, the more formal methods get developed and formal schools start offering lessons. The same has happened with tango. It happened with salsa. It is happening with bachata. Martial arts and yoga are non-dancing examples. The latter two were cultural but not something common folks gave time to. There was awareness but not practiced. Yet you see the same trajectory.

Common refrain is that the “thing” is losing its soul. Or doesn’t have soul. The thing could be tango, salsa, bachata, yoga, etc. That is a valid criticism. The people who learn it in more “formal” way tend to be more mechanical. They are learning it from one person without wider cultural exposure. They start believing there is one true way or superior way.

You need chaos for soul or artistry to thrive. The more discipline or the order you put in, the more factory-like assembly line effect results.

 

[Bailango]

I'm still waiting for you to realise that you don't actually need the teachers

I agree. Unfortunately a lot of people need a teacher for validation. Only a few are into self-learning. It is easier to be told than to figure things out on your own. It also takes more energy and time to self-learn.

After a certain stage social dancers need to add self-learning to improve. That stage starts once you no longer have to think about the steps when you dance. Therefore once you been dancing for a year or two.

 

[JournalInTime]

I feel that I need a coach, not teachers per se.

I'm not a naïve victim of advertising, classroom culture, or predatory teachers. I'm experienced and (I think!) intelligent enough, and I dance often enough, that when something I want to do doesn't go as planned, I can eventually figure out my own solution. I know this because I figure out most things on my own.

However, there are some things that go wrong for far too long for my liking, despite my best efforts. There are other things that escape my ability to figure things out, as I'm not some sort of dance prodigy. Since I'm a person who likes neither giving up nor spinning my wheels, I bring these things to my coach. My coach has more experience than me in most things and different experiences from mine in nearly all things, so this typically cuts the Gordian knot.

The recent involvement of a second teacher is because this man has direct access to an old tango lineage, and I'm straight-up tempted. Rejecting the opportunity would be, for me, like being a painter and turning down a chance to work with the protégé of someone whose art hangs in the Louvre.

In essence, I value having an informed sounding board. My background is theoretical physics, and that's how nearly all advances were made: Bring your problems to other minds, ponder them collectively, find a breakthrough. So, it's clearly a problem-solving method that works for me. Being a Lone Ranger doesn't suit me, and asking dance partners to help me solve things really doesn't suit me, because I want to have mastery when I invite them, not sometime after I've been less-than-great dancer for them.

 

[Bailango]

Teachers are useful in that they should have more knowledge and experience in fields or areas or things that you're interested in. They're no harm as long as you critically analyse and consider what they impart without accepting things blindly, which is what the vast majority of class-goers do, hence the slow convergence of dance styles and death of individuality over time.

I agree. The problem is we have taken what needs to be taught in apprentice model and made it one size fit all. Apprentice model is time consuming, needs more resources, and less inexpensive. One size fits all model of teaching everyone in a mass class irrespective of differing ability to learn is never going to be optimal. Analogy is home made food with fast food. It is cheaper, easier, and faster to serve fast food. But it tastes the same and has no flavor.

 

[JournalInTime]

Unfortunately a lot of people need a teacher for validation.

Definitely not what I seek. I might seek validation from partners, because anything done in a couple has that angle to it, but not from teachers.

It is easier to be told than to figure things out on your own. It also takes more energy and time to self-learn.

It isn't ease I'm after, either. However, energy and time are huge for me. I got into tango too late in life to make a career of it, and this is a huge regret for me . . . I wish I'd brought it into my life at age 20-25 instead of age 45, and at almost 57, I'm acutely aware of the fact that my body isn't at the stage where it'll be able to dance athletically with great speed, dissociation, and control for a whole lot more years. So, rather than let problems bounce around for months to years, wasting remaining time, I see a coach in order to solve them in weeks . . . which usually demands work that's the opposite of "easy."

After a certain stage social dancers need to add self-learning to improve. That stage starts once you no longer have to think about the steps when you dance. Therefore once you been dancing for a year or two.

I haven't thought about steps when I dance for 7-8 years. I pretty much dance in a flow state. A lot of what I do dance is self-designed – I have a recognizable personal style. I just don't believe that all that is mutually exclusive with also wanting coaching!

 

[Bailango]

I dislike the way some people try to shove concepts from Eastern philosophy into tango. Especially egregious are fellow Asians who should know better. Imagine charging for workshops on Tango Zen! Chan Park commercialising Zen of all things is ridiculous.

I really dislike it. I haven’t seen Asians do it. For example 80% of tango followers around my home are of Asian heritage.

Trying to fuse eastern philosophy into Tango is primarily done by westerners. That could include second or third generation Asian who by the fact of growing up in the west is westerner too. Though I haven’t seen Asian origin proponent of eastern philosophy and tango.

Tantric Tango, Somatic Tango, Zen tango, tango meditation retreat, Spiritual tango, yada, yada. People try to take their passion in one thing and try to fuse it into another. Then they want others to do it too. Or imagine this is hugely beneficial for others to solve their life problems. The biggest problem is they truly believe in their cause. In this case fusing things together.

 

[JournalInTime]

I agree. The problem is we have taken what needs to be taught in apprentice model and made it one size fit all.

This is precisely why I'm working privately with a coach and now a man who wants to convey the methods of a tango lineage, and not taking classes. I'm basically an apprentice. I haven't been in a group class in about 8 years.

 

[Bailango]

Definitely not what I seek. I might seek validation from partners, because anything done in a couple has that angle to it, but not from teachers.

It isn't ease I'm after, either. However, energy and time are huge for me. I got into tango too late in life to make a career of it, and this is a huge regret for me . . . I wish I'd brought it into my life at age 20-25 instead of age 45, and at almost 57, I'm acutely aware of the fact that my body isn't at the stage where it'll be able to dance athletically with great speed, dissociation, and control for a whole lot more years. So, rather than let problems bounce around for months to years, wasting remaining time, I see a coach in order to solve them in weeks . . . which usually demands work that's the opposite of "easy."

I haven't thought about steps when I dance for 7-8 years. I pretty much dance in a flow state. A lot of what I do dance is self-designed – I have a recognizable personal style. I just don't believe that all that is mutually exclusive with also wanting coaching!

I wasn’t talking about you You are more of a seeker. That’s beyond self-learning!

 

[Bailango]

Of course you've got a point here. But the quote you are referring to in your answer isn't mine. Think you know that my English isn't that good. Perhaps an AI language model answered in my opinion?

View attachment 5845

The forum software has changed. For the past six months or so when composing a reply you can’t see who the quote is being attributed to. If you accidentally hit reply to two different posts and then delete one of the two, wrong poster can get attributed. You only realise after the post is published.

 

[JournalInTime]

I wasn’t talking about you You are more of a seeker. That’s beyond self-learning!

One of my favorite followers calls me the "tango monk (in Japanese, so I'm trusting her to tell me the truth) for this reason. Not sure whether that's good or bad.

 

[JournalInTime]

The forum software has changed. For the past six months or so when composing a reply you can’t see who the quote is being attributed to. If you accidentally hit reply to two different posts and then delete one of the two, wrong poster can get attributed. You only realise after the post is published.

Yes, and it drives me mad. Fortunately, if you click on the three dots and then the brackets, you can see the BBCode (or whatever this software calls it), which reveals the user you're quoting.

 

[pianistamediano]

Though I haven’t seen Asian origin proponent of eastern philosophy and tango.

Tango Zen

He was born in South Korea I think.

 

[Bailango]

Yes, and it drives me mad. Fortunately, if you click on the three dots and then the brackets, you can see the BBCode (or whatever this software calls it), which reveals the user you're quoting.

View attachment 5846

Thanks. I didn’t know the trick!!

 

[Bailango]

Tango Zen

He was born in South Korea I think.

Quoting a part of his bio:

I had a surreal experience akin to traveling through time and space. After much investigation, I came to the conclusion that I had experienced something very close to a zen moment. This experience led me to explore my understanding of tango in a new way.

This is what I scoff at and call shallow understanding. Anyone can have this type of experienced when they are fully engrossed in any activity. Be it pottery making or marathon running or painting or scientific experiment or solving a difficult equation or playing music.

To some individuals it is like they stumbled upon something profound and then set out to proselytise.

 

[Brummbaer]

But back onto a more normal track...
Tango is a passion

(I guess YT can auto-translate captions)

Interesting showing the teaching methodology - and walking (and projection). We've done similar - but better later, or mixed; earlier was just too much single focus with no obvious end.

I don't say that this is any better, or worse! Just an observation that, out of BsAs, we want quick results to be able to 'dance' and to go to that milonga, rather than to dance well with musicality. We don't want the pain and time. That's not our culture. Similarly, we don't need to stick on some other philosophy.

But that's the way it is. As discussed elsewhere on designing a tango course. So, it's a matter of continuing from where people are - however they've been taught.