Leaders. How was your Tango journey?

[JournalInTime]

No, this was not about the quality of dancing. What i meant is that social dancing as a part of social life does not exist anymore. I can't go on a date and do "dinner and dancing" as a reasonably standard option. I can't expect most social functions to have dancing. I can't expect that dancing is part of minimal social skills.
I am at the very tail end of social dancing - my school offered dance lessons as part of prep for the prom. At a few parties before and after the prom there was people doing partner dancing - it vanished quickly because it was mostly already an anachronism, and nobody else did any social dancing at parties. At weddings there was a reasonable expectation that there would be partner dancing, and that you would see cross-generational dancing social dancing for fun. When my grandparents generation was still around there was usually a bit of social dancing at family gettogethers, and everybody from my parents generation somewhat knew how to dance, but at my parents parties there was no social dancing anymore. Today partner dance is either a hobby, or it is extremely romantically coded - the only partner dances that still are part of social life are the first dance at weddings, and slowdancing as a form of pda.

That interpretation of the "social" in "social dancing" is not what most people interpret the word to mean, which is dancing done with partners at an event that exists as much for socializing as for dancing. The idea of dancing incidental to any old social event – even one that isn't a milonga or other dance party – with people selected because they're in your cultural or demographic group, not because they study dance and regard it as a primary interest, is definitely dying or dead, I agree! However, I'd term such dancing "convivial" (like playing a party game or singing in rounds) or "cultural" (like kissing cheeks or exchanging gifts), not "social."

 

[opendoor]

That interpretation of the "social" in "social dancing" is not what most people interpret the word to mean..

Exactly, social originally was meant as opposite to courtly.

 

[pianistamediano]

Well. repeated unwanted criticism is a situation where ending the dance immediately in the middle of the song is appropriate, and skill levels aren't even relevant, since it is just rude.

It warrants a good slap in the face and knee to the meat and two veg, methinks.

 

[opendoor]

..repeated unwanted criticism is a situation where ending the dance immediately in the middle of the song is appropriate..

Other way round, if the dance partner doesn't immediately respond to the (kindly expressed) criticism, it's a legitimate reason to immediately send her back to the edge of the dance floor. Dancing is not masochism!

 

[tangoing]

We have teachers like that around here (including one of my favorites!). Unfortunately, we also have quite few who wouldn't be caught dead at the milonga with people who are less than "advanced": Their duty to their students starts when classes start and ends when classes end.

That's close to true here, too.

There are a few people who have been dancing for a long time who either learned during the height of "tango nuevo" and never mastered the embrace, or who quit their lessons before learning more than the "practice embrace"; one guy in particular, after close to 30 years, still stands at arm's length to all of his partners. There's one school obsessed with movements that don't work well in the embrace, and at times their students seem to be dancing one big soltada. And the more competitive, eyes-on-the-Mundial types dance using that weird "embrace" that isn't an embrace, with zero weight sharing or apilado, and lots of opening to show off. But all put together, those groups are maybe 30% of our dancers.

So, call it 70% here.

If you get away from classes, teachers, studios, etc. and focus on milongas for a few years, you eventually stop running into these people. I sometimes help my coach teach less advanced dancers, sometimes help a local teacher when her regular teaching partner isn't around, am a member of a school run as a co-op, and am personal friends with enough tango teachers that I can host a cocktail party with just them; so, I orbit closer to the academic side of tango here. I therefore know lots of people who are pure academic dancers, not social dancers – and they aren't all beginners.

A couple of these people regularly ask me if I can accompany them in lessons or whatnot. My reaction is, "It has been years! Glad you're back to tango!" Their response is, "What do you mean, 'back'? I never left." Then we have the awkward conversation in which they talk about their 5 or 10 years of studio work while I ask why – despite dancing up to 5 times a week – I've never seen them at a milonga. The most recent such experience was . . . uh, twice this week.

What were their reasons for not going to milongas despite being experienced dancers?

 

[tangoing]

No, this was not about the quality of dancing. What i meant is that social dancing as a part of social life does not exist anymore. I can't go on a date and do "dinner and dancing" as a reasonably standard option. I can't expect most social functions to have dancing. I can't expect that dancing is part of minimal social skills.
I am at the very tail end of social dancing - my school offered dance lessons as part of prep for the prom. At a few parties before and after the prom there was people doing partner dancing - it vanished quickly because it was mostly already an anachronism, and nobody else did any social dancing at parties. At weddings there was a reasonable expectation that there would be partner dancing, and that you would see cross-generational dancing social dancing for fun. When my grandparents generation was still around there was usually a bit of social dancing at family gettogethers, and everybody from my parents generation somewhat knew how to dance, but at my parents parties there was no social dancing anymore. Today partner dance is either a hobby, or it is extremely romantically coded - the only partner dances that still are part of social life are the first dance at weddings, and slowdancing as a form of pda.

Depends on the culture. Lots of latin culture incorporate salsa/bachata/etc into their regular social life, so if you’re part of that community it’s still the norm.

 

[tangoing]

"A beginner lead is not going to get many dances" is definitely true here. Well, it's a bit nuanced: They can get one tanda – but if it becomes clear that they're a beginner, that follower won't dance with that leader again, and neither will that follower's follower friends. I had one particular follower mafia ignore me for 6-7 years after I first danced with one of them less than a year into my tango journey.

We have a big enough community here that, despite role imbalance (3 followers to 2 leaders most evenings, sometimes as bad as 2:1 or even 3:1), followers just don't need to dance with beginner leaders. As those role ratios show, we have far more followers than leaders starting tango, so the average leader has been around for a while. That means they're considerably more advanced than "beginner," and followers are often happy to stay seated and turn down the few beginner leaders present while they await a tanda or two with more advanced leaders.

By contrast, a total beginner female follower who hangs off her partners, spears feet with her heels, stares at her or her leader's feet, etc. can dance all night with even the best leaders if she's under 30, slim, attractive, and well-dressed. It's a bit of an elephant in the room. It's also why I make a point of not inviting followers in that category.

I mean this basically mirrors dating and similar social interactions in real life. Women will go for more experienced guys who know what they’re doing (or at least ones with status) and guys will just go for attractive young women (in general). So it’s not entirely surprising but a good microcosm of the world.

 

[JournalInTime]

What were their reasons for not going to milongas despite being experienced dancers?

Mostly "potential partners aren't as technically skilled as me" and "other couples get in the way" . . . in short, "I do all this work to express the music, and I don't want other humans messing with it."

 

[JournalInTime]

Other way round, if the dance partner doesn't immediately respond to the (kindly expressed) criticism, it's a legitimate reason to immediately send her back to the edge of the dance floor. Dancing is not masochism!

I think that just about always, the situation is "decent enough follower, bad leader." Maybe it happens that good leaders are so physically challenged by bad followers that it's dangerous or painful, and something has to be said, but that's a rarity. Anyway, criticism has no place on the floor. If you aren't 100% sure that you'll like a tanda, don't invite that person. You can figure out what you're in for by watching them dance ahead of time.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

A beginner lead is not going to get many dances unless he is overly charismatic/friendly or

... or young and good looking. It happens, it does.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

If you aren't 100% sure that you'll like a tanda, don't invite that person. You can figure out what you're in for by watching them dance ahead of time.

A hundred percent is hard to come by and what if you haven't seen them dance? Do you risk it? Also, watching them dance is not always indicative of anything. Nor are the suggestions of friends ("she's very good, etc."). Sometimes you can get a sense by watching that you might click with someone but there's always an element of risk. That also applies to "high-level" dancers, by the way. Some women seem to have an aura about them that you'll click when you dance.

 

[pianistamediano]

I mean this basically mirrors dating and similar social interactions in real life. Women will go for more experienced guys who know what they’re doing (or at least ones with status) and guys will just go for attractive young women (in general). So it’s not entirely surprising but a good microcosm of the world.

And women still complain... The vast majority don't practise what they preach (or want leaders to do).

 

[JournalInTime]

A hundred percent is hard to come by and what if you haven't seen them dance? Do you risk it? Also, watching them dance is not always indicative of anything. Nor are the suggestions of friends ("she's very good, etc."). Sometimes you can get a sense by watching that you might click with someone but there's always an element of risk. That also applies to "high-level" dancers, by the way. Some women seem to have an aura about them that you'll click when you dance.

You can't be 100% sure that they dance well, of course. I just meant that if you aren't certain you want that tanda, with that person, for sure . . . well, why invite them?

 

[Be Present]

Those guys are total wankers . . . I wish they would dry up and blow away.

My girlfriend has studied and danced tango for over 10 years. Her coach – with whom she works weekly – is one of the people who introduced tango in my city, and has been studying and dancing tango for well over 30 years, and teaching it for well over 20. As a result, my girlfriend has good technique, to the extent that at a workshop a while back, Claudia Codega told her, "You have good technique." Our coach claims that if she wanted to teach tango, she probably could.

Anyway, this past weekend, my girlfriend and I went to a milonga together. She's my main dance partner, so we do that a lot. And some guy there – who has been dancing tango for all of 2-3 years, and who is 100% self-taught and proud of it – invited her to dance. This guy is a brusque dancer who uses his arms, stares at his feet, regularly puts his partner outside his frame, and clamps his partner tightly when not doing that. My girlfriend accepted because the event was lightly attended and I had a tanda with a friend.

And this guy proceeded to stop dancing every few measures to critique my girlfriend's technique. Not just any technique, but technique in two particular areas where she has worked extra-hard to be clean and good – the technique that Claudia liked, in fact.

I was just floored that this foot-gazing, arm-leading, weirdly contorted leader did that. I didn't have words with him, because at a lightly attended event, that would've been unfair to the organizers. But I have been passing word of his bad behavior to followers, and my girlfriend has been doing the same.

People like that kill tango every time they step onto the pista.

I think that someone, likely a leader, should pull that guy aside and let him know not to critique on the pista. He needs to be told that it is viewed to be rude. It does no one any favors to allow him to continue.

I will say that, when it comes to minor instruction at a milonga, for me it completely depends on who I am dancing with and what kind of relationship I have with them/how they approach it. I have leaders whom I have great relationships with. If we are in the ronda and I realize I missed something that is new to me, I personally am not afraid to ask what they were trying to lead so that I recognize the lead the next time. This is a long way from the rude leaders I have danced with who give unwanted feedback in a condescending manner. These are leaders I avoid. They think they are so much better than everyone else on the floor when in reality they usually feel just mediocre to me.

 

[Rabbit]

Some women seem to have an aura about them that you'll click when you dance.

I just know. I don't bother to watch the dancing.